Welcome to the show, where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.

Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the Global North or the Global South, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.

What does it really take to identify opportunities, Dr. Innovation and create engaged, high performing teams?Welcome to episode 103 of TIE Unearthed.

Today I sit down with Rafael Cohen, professor, serial entrepreneur, author, business Angel and expert in executive education.With over 2 decades of experience directing MBA programs and teaching leaders how to seize opportunities engage their teams, Rafael has a wealth of insights to share.

In this conversation, we explore his incredible journey from an entrepreneurial childhood to shaping the future of leadership education.We dive into what holds innovation back in organizations, why psychological safety is crucial for engagement, and how kindness and fairness in leadership drive business success.

Plus, Rafael shares some game changing tools and strategies for identifying the right opportunities and avoiding the wrong ones.So.If you’re ready to rethink leadership, innovation, and the future of work, this ones for you.

Let’s dive in.Raphael, thank you very much for joining me here on TIE Unearthed.I’m just thrilled to have you.Thank you very much.Well, it’s a pleasure.Thank you for inviting me.To kick off, I’d just like to know where are you sitting?

Because I have people, as you know, I’ve talked to you a little bit about the podcast.I have people from, as I like to say, all corners of the world.And so where are you in your corner of the world?I’m sorry to disappoint you.I’m not in a corner of the world.

I’m in the center of the world.I’m in Geneva, Switzerland.That’s a great way of saying it.Fantastic.So are you from Geneva?No, I was born in Egypt from Italian parents.My parents had to leave Egypt when I was four years old.

They came to Switzerland and I and Switzerland has been my base since then.My mother tongue was French because my parents spoke to me in French there, but also Arabic because my nanny spoke Arabic.My children have 4 passports.

They’re Swiss like me, they’re Italian like me, they’re French and Canadian like their mother.So we’re really citizens of the world.And just out of interest, how many languages do you now speak?4-5 and say because some I speak more or less fluently, but if you want we could switch to Spanish, French, maybe a little bit of German, Italian, everything is.

Right, right.And as long as people can understand it, that’s what I, you know, I kept telling myself when I had to be on the stage in front of 600 people speaking Portuguese.And I thought, I am this is this could go horribly wrong.But I just need to keep reminding myself as long as people can understand what I’m saying and that’s all that matters.

The grammar might be not fantastic, but at least communication is people understanding what you’re trying to connect.So, and just for our listeners, this connection came via such an amazing the way the world works.So Tia.He, I met here in Brazil, God, a few years ago now, a couple years ago, I think he and his wife, Barbara, they were sailing around the world and they happened to be docked in his sippy on their sailboat.

And we ended up, you know, because of my partner Guga, we ended up meeting up and then they came to my house and we went around, walking around for Carnival and we had wine sitting at the front of my place.And then, yeah, he very kindly put me in touch with you because of what we’re both working on.

And we obviously are very much interested in a similar area of work.And it’s just amazing, isn’t it, how the world, just how the stars align?And you were school friends with him, is that not?Absolutely.We’ve been in class together probably since the age of 12, 15, something like that.

And we, we finished our secondary school together.We’re really very good friend, maybe even younger than that, now that I think about it, and we’ve remained friends since then until Geneva was too small for both of us.He decided to go on this trip on his sailing, I guess.

I don’t know.He’s lovely.He’s very generous heart.Barbara, his wife, he’s also wonderful.And where we don’t see each other very often, but the bond remains still very strong.Yeah, well, it’s funny because Bugger has just finished a crazy sail trip from France all the way to Florida via Cabo Veggie and Kik Veggie, and you have the Caribbean and anyway, huge trip.

But there is a Constellation.He’s like, no one has found this constellation yet.And he keeps having these conversations with Tia, he who obviously is an astrophysicist.So they keep having these conversations about where this constellation is.So anyway, so back to you, Raphael.

So tell us your story and a little bit about you and your background.My parents had to live in Egypt because the political situation was not favorable anymore for some people and they came to Switzerland with nothing.So my father had to start from scratch.

My mother did not even know how to cook an egg.She had never put a stepped foot in the kitchen.So my parents really had to start from zero.And I’ve learned one thing from them from that time is that you can lose everything in your life, materially speaking, but the only thing that you cannot lose is what is between your two years.

So I’ve been always encouraged to cultivate my brain and to learn new things, and this has been extremely helpful in my life.So to make it short, I studied science in secondary school.I got then a degree in business.

And while I was at the university, I did not want my father to pay for my life.So I decided to work in parallel and before I had finished my secondary degree, I started a new business to sell promotional T-shirts, printed T-shirts.

And this business evolved.And as I was working, I did the clandestine PhD because I was working with my father at the time.And I decided to do a PhD, but I knew he would not like the idea that I could focus on something else than the business.

So I did it totally undercover.And I told my parents and everybody else in fact, that one month before the final presentation that I they were invited for the ending part of my PhD.So I did it for the fun of it, just never thought that I would need the PhD.

And I got it.I put it in a drawer, forgot about it.Some friends knew I had one, but then I stayed there for some time.And then what happened is that in this T-shirt business, we managed to obtain the license of Walt Disney to print Mickey Mouse T-shirts.

And we had the license that allowed us to sell in different countries, not only in Switzerland.And relatively quickly we managed to become one of the largest distributor manufacturer of Mickey Mouse T-shirts in Europe.

So we turned the product into a fashion product.And at the time, maybe you’ve seen some of these T-shirts where women were wearing long oversized T-shirts like beach dresses, night shirts, etcetera.This was us.We’ve been very successful.And then one day I want to see Disney, and I said we would like to sell our T-shirts in the United States.

And they said, but you know, nobody’s been waiting for you to sell Mickey Mouse T-shirts in the USI said yes, but we would like to sell them to adults.And we’ve only managed to sell them to children so far.And they said, yeah, you know, why not?We’ll give you a chance.We managed to penetrate the American market with the adult Mickey Mouse T-shirts like we did it in Europe, and we became really a major player in this industry.

Then through circumstances, we could not sell in the US anymore because we’re becoming a big competition for the existing licenses.But we had still Europe.We said, okay, we can’t do Mickey Mouse, let’s do Tom and Jerry, let’s do Looney Tunes.

And we became the exclusive licensees of all garments for Tom and Jerry and the Looney Tunes in the United States, despite the fact that we’re based in Switzerland.So it was a fantastic story.It was a wonderful business.

We did very well.And then after some time, I got a little bit tired of all these cartoon characters.So I can say proudly that I was running Mickey Mouse company.Yeah, right.Then I sold this activity, and I started to get interested in startups.

I bought some startups, I created some.I closed some because I made mistakes, sold some restructures, some companies, etc, and I became what is called now a business Angel.At the time, the word did not exist then.

What happened is I was asked to help create the first course of entrepreneurship at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, the equivalent of MIT in Switzerland.And I got an interest in teaching.And because the course I created was so successful, the University of Geneva asked me to create the first MBA in entrepreneurship in Switzerland, which was most likely the first MBA of entrepreneurship in continental Europe.

And I fell in love with teaching, and that became my passion.And I started the business of executive education.So training people, multinational companies on how to innovate, how to give a boost to your career by exploiting opportunities.

I teach people how to identify opportunities, how to seize them, to get more gratification from their life.There has been kind of this building block of different phases.I think it’s like one has fit into another one quite beautifully.And maybe you can now take us on this fascinating journey of this thinking and of running businesses and then teaching entrepreneurships.

Obviously you’ve been talking talking about entrepreneurship and then you have also been doing intrapreneurship and then you wrote a book on benevolent management and then engagement and then psychological safety and governance.And these are all kind of buzzwords that we’ve all heard, intrapreneurship, engagement, kindness, governance.

But interestingly, they have all played a very important part in the evolution, if you like, of what you’ve been doing.And I find it fascinating because they all fit together in a important way.And it’s almost like you’ve come full circle.

And I just wonder, can you paint this story for us?Entrepreneurship is basically how to identify opportunities and create your own business.I’ve been an entrepreneur and I have been accumulating in my learning journey a lot of things.

All these things have been extremely helpful, and at the time when I got them, I never anticipated that I could use them down the road.So I’ve studied science when I was in school with theory, and this background in science has been instrumental in my ability to teach engineers and scientists how to create a business.

Because if I could not speak their language, that I could not understand their inventions, then I would have been handicapped.That was one building block.Another building block is the PHDI never thought I would need a PHDI did it for the fun of it.But how did I get to teach entrepreneurship is because somebody said I’m looking for somebody to teach a business plan at the university.

And I said, well, if you want, I can volunteer.This was a good friend of mine who asked me.She was running the MBA at the University of Geneva at the time.And she said, yeah, you know, I like you very much.I’m sure you can say very interesting things.But I need somebody who has a PhD because this is the university.

I have a PhD, so hold on.So fine.So that’s how I got to teach.If I had not put this building block in place before, by chance, my life would have been different.So what I’m trying to say is that the more knowledge you can accumulate, the more people you meet, the network, all these things will help you seize opportunities that you have to learn how to see them.

You then connect the dots, and I think that this is a skill I’ve learned.And when I chose to teach entrepreneurship, I actually tried to teach people how to identify opportunities, how to seize them.I explained them the importance of having a good network and so on.

So everyone has his own little building blocks.And I think that my job is to teach people how to use their building blocks to create their own opportunities and possibly to create their jobs.Now, I started by teaching entrepreneurship, but then I realized that there was something even sexier and entrepreneurship, it’s entrepreneurship.

And entrepreneurship is not about creating a startup.It’s about identifying an opportunity or innovating inside an existing organization and selling it to the top management and taking advantage of it.And at the time when I started in 2001, nobody talked about entrepreneurship.

I mean, very few people.I have had the pleasure.I was lucky to teach entrepreneurship for Nestle for 12 years.I’ve been teaching people at Airbus.I’ve been teaching people in the French post.I mean many large companies, banks, even hospitals.

I’m in charge of teaching people how to innovate in hospitals, and I’ve been helping people with their intrapreneurial projects all over the world.And so far, I was counting not long ago, I’ve been coaching more than 300 real intrapreneurial projects so far.

For me, it’s like being a business Angel because I help people build their opportunity.But except that business Angel is doing it for startups, I’m doing it inside companies.It’s extremely gratifying.It’s a lot of fun and I love it.And to see that this changes people’s life, that it helps them boost their career, is extremely rewarding.

And then you ask me, how come I got into teaching leadership?Because I’ve observed that one of the handicaps inside organizations for innovation is not the lack of ability to innovate, It’s the upper management with blocking innovation.

And I’ve realized that there was a problem with leadership.So as I was managing the MBA in entrepreneurship, I was looking for a professor who would teach leadership the way I had experienced it in my own company.And I could not find anybody because at the time, the way people taught leadership was, how am I going to get my employees to do what I want them to do so that I can reach my own objectives?

And I said, this is not what I see, but this is not what I want.This is not what I’ve experienced.And since I could not find at the time somebody teaching leadership the way I saw it, I created my own course.Then I decided to write the book.I put the focus at the time on being benevolent, caring about the employees, because I think that if you treat them well, they give it back to you tenfold.

So I wrote an article that was called the Plea for Caring Leadership in 2012, when nobody talked about caring or benevolence.This was not in the air.And since then, now many people have talked about caring or benevolent leadership or humanistic leadership or different terms being used.

And my specialty is that I have created a framework that outlines 54 levers that people can use in their life as a leader to obtain engagement.And the title of my book is The Levers of Engagement in French, and I’m currently transiting it into English.

It should be published by the end of this year.This is a book which is providing a real toolbox for any manager.Leader wants to understand what gets people to be engaged or not.And the next step, once I’ve described what leaders should do, I’ve realized that it’s not enough to be a good leader.

You need to have the right governance in an organization so that certain conditions help a good leader to be even more successful.But when this government is not there, the day this leader changes job, everything can go back to bad situation.

But when you have the government in place that ensures continuity and this is a way to protect people from change in upper layers of management.So my concern now, my center of interest now is psychological safety.

And a new book is, is already written on how to create the right conditions, the right governance for psychological safety in organization.Because there are many people who say you should have psychological safety and they give some advice here and there, but there’s no systemic approach.

What is the system that will ensure psychological.Safety.And I think what’s really interesting is when we spoke not long ago, I think what really captured my interest was the parallel, I guess, between what I wrote about in my book, which is return on humanity.

So the return on being more human and this journey that you’ve been on where you were really trying to get people to understand the importance of being kind and caring and of course, being more human.And how I’d explain that in my book is much more than just being kind and caring.

But interestingly, the first words that I say in my book in the 1st chapter is kindness is one of the most like the biggest superpowers in the world.It’s one of those things, isn’t it?In business, it’s the same argument.You know, diversity, yes, diversity is a good thing to do.

Yes, it’s the fair thing to do, but it’s so much more than that.You are more competitive if you have a diverse team of people who think differently.I mean, that’s proven and you know with all the stats in the world.So if you have a homogeneous team of people who only come from one way of thinking, it is no way going to be as strong as a diverse team.

However, it’s also the good thing to do.But business needs to be able to see the hard return and in a similar way with kindness.So I just found it fascinating how it, as you were going through this journey, you did have these conversations come on, You just need to be kind.People come on instead of and then it’s kind of getting to the engagement piece and then it’s realizing, ah, hold on a second.

People will be more engaged if people are kind.If people feel that people care about them more engagement in the workplace, there’s a return on that.And it is proven with all the stats.And if people feel more engaged, your business is going to be better.Full stop.All the stuff.I mean, the research is out there and obviously you can attest to that as well.

And I just think it’s really interesting how you’ve kind of you’ve been on that journey as well.And it’s interesting how and then to create that psychological safety to ensure that engagement, you need to have the governance.And so it’s all these things that are being put in place to ensure a more profitable.Company, I can only agree with that and we’ll even take it one step further when I started teaching about fair and caring leadership because not only about being kind, you must have must be fair as well.

So you must have the fairness element on top of the caring kindness, etcetera.So people in middle and lower management were crying.They said, if only my life could be what the way you describe it if only it would be so wonderful and I thought, well, I’m on something something very important.

But then I realized that when I was telling the same story to upper management, these people were telling me, you know, Rafael, we love what you say, but we’re here to make money and we will make money and only then we will be interested in what you like.So come back to see us in 20 or 30 years.

In the meantime, we want to make money.We don’t have the time to be kind.I realized that I was going nowhere.And instead of saying you should be kind because this is the right thing to do, to do, I’ve changed the paradigm when I say it now you want to make money with engaged people.

They work better, profitability goes up and performance by up to 35%.So you should make sure that your people are engaged.Now, if you have a certain level of performance and this performance is delivered by people who are not engaged, it means that if they were engaged, the level of purpose, performance and profit would be higher.

So if you want to know where you stand, you should not only measure performance, you have to measure the level of engagement of the people who have produced this performance.Because if you do not measure it, you don’t know.So I have developed a tool for measuring engagement that is free and simple and easy to use called Easy Mirror easymirror.com with AZ.

What this has meant is that instead of saying kindness is an end in itself, it has become a mean.I’m saying we agree that you need engaged people now.You expect them to be engaged.If they’re not treated fairly, in a caring manner, don’t even think about it.

So it is to your interest to treat them properly and then they will be engaged and then you will make more money and then you speak the language of investors and shareholders and top manners and now they listen to.You and now they listen to you exactly.

And isn’t that the thing?And I just think this is the key with any of these initiatives.It’s finding the need and it’s finding exactly how it makes business sense.And so much of what I talk about are now able to come, but it takes a while.

You have to go on that journey, doesn’t it?And it’s the journey is a little bit, it’s a bit long sometimes, but you get there in the end.And I just think I can relate to the to the feelings.You’ve written a number of books, you’re on to your next book, but you have two bestsellers.What are they and why did you write them and why have they been such a success?

One book is about the levels of engagement.It’s a really a toolbox.It explains how you obtain engagement.What are the parameters that influence the ability to obtain engagement?Because there’s no single recipe for obtaining engagement.Everyone has to make his own little cocktail.

I felt it was important to share this understanding.I wouldn’t say knowledge is understanding.And that’s one book, and that’s the one I’m translating into English.And the second book that was the best seller was a book on how to identify opportunities, how to analyze them, how to sell them to decision makers for both entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, and how to take advantage of these opportunities.

And how did I get to write this book?1st, it’s what I was teaching at the university and business schools and two companies.But I’ve observed that if you look at all projects, only 12 to 15% are delivered on time and according to budget, which means that about 85 to 88% of all the project derail one way or another, which is enormous.

The question was how come so many project derail and Maya analysis was for calibration.When the project was decided on, people decided to launch the project.They did not have a clear idea of where they were going.And the lack of understanding taught me that pre project analysis, early stage analysis can be extremely important.

And why did I get to this conclusion?Because every time I failed in one of my business ventures, I’ve asked myself what is the question I should have asked myself earlier.And then since I’ve been teaching entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship, I’ve observed so many projects that have succeeded, but many have failed.

And always the same question, why did they fail?What didn’t we see before?And little by little over the years, I have fine-tuned this to have lists of criteria of key questions that should be asked at the early stage.And when I teach innovation or how to analyze projects, I always start my session by asking the participants.

Assuming you’re a decision maker, which are the key questions you should be asking when you you decide to go into a project?When you interview a candidate for a job, you have a checklist, but when you launch a project and you allocate resources, you should also have a checklist.

So give me the list of all the questions you should be asking.That’s the beginning of my course.And I’ve been asking this question for the last 18 years now.And I can tell you until today, nobody has given me a complete list, including CEOs, members of the board of directors, heads of incubators, chief R&D, the office, Nobody.

They always come with six to eight parameters and nobody has the same.I mean, some are overlap, of course.And I tell them there are a minimum of 11 questions that are absolutely indispensable.If you only take eight or six, it means you’re missing five or three.

And these are blind spots that can make your project derail.And I’m going to present you at the end of this class list, and I will explain you until I present them why these are the 11 questions that should be asked.And at that time, I will ask you 2 questions.

The first one is, is there any of these questions that we can live without?And the second question will be, is there something missing?Because I want you to leave this training with the list that you’re comfortable using anywhere for the rest of your life.And that’s what prompted me to write the book.

And now in fact, decision tree that I’m talking about with the 11 questions has been reproduced in an ISO standard on managing IDs and opportunities, ISO 56, double O 7 like James Bond.Nice, nice James Bond.

That’s.Perfect.Exactly.And I always say I’m a killer.Kill IDs and opportunities because I want to save you from suffering because you went after the wrong opportunity.So I’d rather kill it early.And I get as much satisfaction killing opportunities as I get satisfaction in promoting the good ones at the right.

So I’m a killer first I kill and then I get enthusiastic for the remaining ones.So for those who survive, then I will help them grow.Question for you, because the World Economic Forum job report came out and the top skills that are going to be needed for for people to have over the next five years are very much rooted in what we were talking about, which is like the softer skills.

So it’s, it is kindness, but it’s also curiosity, empathy is a big one, creative thinking.And I’m just wondering because obviously being a professor, being so involved in business, following everything that’s happening with AI.And I’m just curious when you’re looking at a return on humanity and reflecting on what we’ve been talking about, what are your thoughts of the importance of these skills, particularly in relation to this growth in AI and why do you think they are more important now than ever?

Well.It’s an interesting question because when I designed the program of the MBA that I was managing, I said what are the skills that future executives will need and these are the skills we should teach them.So of course you have finance, marketing, all this kind of stuff.

These are the basics.And I said there are two skills that no artificial intelligence will be able to steal from. 1 is the ability to identify opportunities, analyze them with your creative brain, and that’s the part was mentioning before.

And the second skill is the ability to lead people.The ability to lead people require soft skills.What bothers me with what you’ve mentioned before is that people try to put their finger on a few skills like empathy, curiosity, and so on, but the reality is life is so much more complex than that.

You could be curious, you could have empathy, you could have all sorts of things.But if at the end of the day, you are not fair or you’re privileging some people over others, or if you’re pushing men instead of women, or even the other way around, simply by principle, this is not going to work.

So instead of focusing on the means and saying people should be like this, like this, like that, I’m saying no, let’s measure the result.They’re obtained because you could have somebody who is extremely authoritarian but obtains engagement because this person is very charismatic.

And I gave the example of Steve Jobs.He was not a nice person, but he had incredible followers.So that’s what you want.You want a result.And I’m saying measure the engagement that is obtained rather than focusing on the means because the means everybody can have his own recipe.

Now of course certain things will make it easier than others, but as long as you understand the lever that influences the end result that you want.And that’s why my book is called The Levers of.Engagement.So what are you doing now?

I mean, you talk about teaching and you’re talking about your tool, which is something you created before, which is still out there.What are you doing now?How do you do it and what is working?I’m teaching, of course I enjoy.I’m passionate about teaching.I write about some topics that could be of interest, not only books are a lot of and I’ve developed a software that is helping people analyze their opportunity asking challenging questions and it forces people to mature their project and to go more in depth.

And after they’ve been answering all these questions, the software prints the business plan automatically.So they don’t even need to waste time trying to write etcetera.And it’s the business case that is written at the end is according to the ISO 50, 007 standards, exactly because that standard gives a template on how to present a project in a convincing manner, which is much more efficient and effective than traditional business plans.

And I’m saying it’s much more because it’s a copy paste of what is in my book.So it’s beautiful.So I’m very proud of that.All the experts who’ve written this standard have adopted this template.And the nice thing about the software is that people don’t need to make the effort of writing.

So it’s a huge time saving benefit.And for organizations, the benefit is that all the knowledge that people have put or the insights they have about their projects are captured in a structured database that becomes a knowledge management system for pre project stage.

The ideation stage is now captured in a software.This is the only one available in the market.And the nice thing about this knowledge management system is that nobody has to make an effort to feed and say, oh, I should put this information in the knowledge management system.

It’s captured while people are using it for their own benefit of maturing their projects and writing their business case at the end.So it’s a thematic process.So that’s one of the things that I’m excited about.So is this something?That is on your website or people get in touch with you to if they would like to know more.

How does that work?They can go on a.Website called Epoch Tools, IPOP toolsinoneword.com Epoch tools because the methodology I’ve developed is called the IPOP model.So IPOP tools dot com and the the all all of this is explained, but I’d be more than happy to answer anyone with who could be interested by this.

That’s one of the things I am working on.I help people create these charters, defining the DNA of the culture of the organization, because I think that if you want to create psychological safety, you must provide clear framework, not just simply publishing values that are on a wall.

People look at them, but they don’t leave them.What I’m talking about is about defining something similar to the 10 commandments.You know, 10 commandments have been used to tractor organized society.You will not steal, you will not kill.

And with 10 principles, fundamental principles, society has been organized.My experience is that with eight to twelve such principles, you can define the DNA of the cultural DNA of organizations.And that makes people understand what has to be done, what has not to be done.

Now, for these principles to be effective, they should also be enforced.So I’ve been working a lot on enforcement of principles, how to make sure that these principles are lived, that people who don’t respect them, their consequences of not respecting them.

Today, it’s not the case.So the topic of my new book on governance addresses these issues and comes with sort of concrete solutions that can be practically implemented.What gets you excited?Every day.Oh. 1st, I’m allergic to injustice and I’m allergic to suffering.

And So what I’m trying to do basically is to make the workplace a better place to live so that people suffer less.And the other thing that really gets me excited is to see that I can help some people change your life, learn things that will boost their career, that will help them climb the corporate ladder.

They’re not necessarily vertically, but also diagonally, which means that with what they’ve learned, they’re no longer only capable of going upwards in their field, but they can jump into other areas.And in any case, in the current highly changing world that we live in, people will have to change jobs and careers.

And I think they need these tools to be equipped to navigate yuca world.So I’m really happy when somebody tells me, you know, what I’ve learned in your classes, in your program has had a huge impact on me.It has changed my life.

Your professionally, sometimes even privately, you know, I’ve looked at things through a different angle and I say, OK, then that gives meaning to what I’m doing.So I wake up every morning and I say there’s so much to do on so little time.So I know that’s great.It’s great, isn’t it?I mean, how lucky that you found your calling and you’ve been able to do that since Mickey Mouse stays.

I’m very lucky I.Really am very I mean, if I look at my life, I’ve had ups and downs, but at the end all of this has contributed to make the person I am and everything has been, as you mentioned at the very beginning building.So I’m happy Somebody asked me how long I wanted to work.

I said, you know for me, I have a very simple plan.My plan is I want to live forever and so far it’s working.Is there anything that I?Haven’t asked you that you’d like to tell her Listens one thing is I.Encourage people to look at Easy Mirror.

It’s a free tool for measuring engagement.And there’s one quote I’d like to share with you from Sun Tzu, the famous general who wrote The Art of War.And he said something that is so true.He said by authority I mean the qualities of fairness, of severity, courage, wisdom, and humanity of the general.

So in fact, there are 5 qualities here.If every single leader had these five qualities, I think the world would be different.And if we were measuring the ability to obtain engagement, we would know who are the true leaders.And that would do such a house cleaning job.

It would be beautiful and I would conclude with one last recommendation.There’s one book I I love.It’s called, It’s written by Robert Sutton.It’s called The No Asphalt Rule.This book was published in 2007.I think it has been sold 800,000 copies.

It has been rated the best business book in 2007 in the United States and I love this book because first it allows me to say that there are assholes around because of the title in the book.Second reason is because it’s a book that you can give as a gift to some people, so very effective.

That’s great.Raphael, thank you for the recommendations.Thank you for the quote.I often ask people for quotes and I forgot to ask you and you beat me to it.So that’s wonderful.I am so pleased that you brought that.So thank you so much.I do love quotes and thank you for your time.It’s been wonderful speaking to you and I look forward to continue the conversations.

Me too, thank.You for inviting me.It was a very stimulating and enjoyable chat and I feel the time has flown to past and I hope we’ll have many other opportunities to have stimulating conversations together.Thank you very much.

Thank you.Until next time.Hey everyone, this is.Philippa, again, I hope you enjoyed listening.Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.

We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business or.Check out my.Book Return on Humanity Leadership lessons from all corners of the world.You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force.

While remaining at the.Forefront of competition you can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com Get in touch and.I can explain more.A huge thanks to Bejana Viera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.

I hope we’ll meet up again soon.