0:03
Welcome to the show where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses
of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.
0:14
Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.
Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the global North or the global S,
0:26
expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.
0:40
Today we are exploring the power of business to drive meaningful change with a true pioneer.
Elsie Mayo.
0:49
Welcome to episode 107 of TIE Unearthed.
Now, Elsie’s career began on Wall Street where she worked in institutional equities research before
1:00
then moving to McKinsey and Company and later becoming a partner in two pioneering corporate
identity firms.
1:07
Now, it was through these experiences she saw first hand how business shapes society and just how
powerful it can be when fueled by purpose.
1:19
And it was that realization that became the foundation for literally everything she does today.
For more than two decades, Elsie has been at the forefront of helping executives navigate shifting
1:32
economic, social and market forces.
In 1997, she developed the Sole branding system, which is a dynamic framework that helps leaders
1:42
align business success with human well-being.
She believes that marketing in particular holds the key to rebooting capitalism, moving beyond
1:54
transactional relationships to create real, lasting value for people and the planet.
In this conversation, LC and I dive deep into the evolving role of business, the importance of
2:08
empathy in leadership, and the risks and opportunities ahead, including AI, corporate
responsibility, and rethinking the way companies measure success.
2:20
We talk about the power of asking the right questions, the need to reconnect with nature, and even a
few unexpected stories like a persistent possum in my garden that then led to a pretty surprising
2:33
insight.
It’s a fascinating discussion about connection, curiosity, and the future of business as a force for
2:41
Wait for you to hear it.
So let’s get started.
2:50
Hello Elsie, it is so, so good to have you with me today on TIE Unearthed.
Thank you so much for joining us.
2:58
I’m thrilled, Philippa.
So I always like asking this question.
3:01
I feel very fortunate that I managed to connect with so many incredible people, literally from all
corners of the world.
3:09
And I just love the fact that I’m speaking to you, and maybe you can just bring to life what corner
of the world you’re in.
3:16
I am in a corner of the world called New York City.
I am sitting five stories up over the Atlantic Ocean, over the beach in a section called Rockaway,
3:28
and if you’ve ever flown in or out of JFK Airport, you’ve probably flown over where I am right now.
I just can’t even imagine when we were speaking the last time and you’re saying how, oh, yeah, no,
3:39
today there’s no surfers out there.
But yeah, I mean, sometimes I’m lucky enough to listen to see the surfers out my window.
3:45
And you think, God, that’s not what first comes to mind.
What do you think of New York City?
3:50
So what a privilege.
It is a privilege and you know, I mean, it’s apropos of our conversation.
3:55
What is and what has brought us together.
For me, it’s the whole megillah.
4:00
Here we are in the living system as human beings, part of nature, and with surrounded by urban
decay, which literally we are in the close community of our neighbors and loved ones in the midst of
4:15
this incredible onslaught of information and communication through the invisible Airways all the
time.
4:23
This is it.
I mean, we’re sitting right in the middle of all of that.
4:26
Incredible, isn’t it?
Well, you’re sitting there and I’m listening.
4:29
We get parrots that are in our trees at around this time of the day here in Brazil.
And so as you’re saying this, I’m listening to the screeching of parrots as they’re going from one
4:40
tree to the next.
I’m in a city called Olinda, which is for our listeners.
4:45
If you look at the map of Brazil, Olinda is just next to Hissifi, which is the closest point to
Lisbon.
4:52
So we’re right on the coast as well.
Yeah, so I can see, I can see the ocean from my window as well, but it’s just probably a little bit
5:00
warmer.
And if people were surfing, they would not be wearing probably full body wet suits.
5:04
So that’s the difference.
What great imagery.
5:08
Here we are, sitting in the midst of the web of life.
What a great way to start this conversation today.
5:13
Amazing, isn’t it?
God, I’m so grateful to Algorithm.
5:16
I’m not a massive fan of social media for probably all the reasons, you know, the listeners can
imagine.
5:21
My children do not have social media and will not for, well, until they’re probably 18 years old and
they can make their own decisions.
5:28
But I’m very grateful to Algorithms for bringing us together.
And when we did speak God, I was so inspired by your story, and I just wonder if you could just
5:39
bring your story to life for us.
I grew up in Brooklyn.
5:42
My father was a New York City fireman, my mother a homemaker, four siblings.
In my family, I’m the eldest.
5:49
I can’t say that there was any big plan to how my career got started or wound up, but I was
fortunate enough to find myself in a situation where I could study what felt really good to me.
6:05
And what felt really good to me at that point in my life, 17 or 18, was the higher aspiration that I
sensed in this book that my auntie had given me when I was nine years old.
6:17
It was a story of Greek mythology.
And for me that sparked a sense of wonder and magic and the potential of gods, of God like behavior
6:28
in humanish kind of form.
Capricious, sure, but certainly somewhat unlimited.
6:34
And so I followed that.
It stayed with me that same sense of yes, humans can in effect do almost anything that our
6:43
imagination allows us to entertain.
And so, so kind of by happenstance, I wound up earning a living going to Wall Street, being a
6:52
neurotic overachiever, which is 1 of Mckinsey’s primary recruiting requirements.
I went there after Wall Street.
6:59
And that was when I got to see how business actually decisions get made and to be part of the
process of helping them make them.
7:07
That was interesting.
And then I said, OK, well, now I want to be really closer to the action because this is fun.
7:13
I see how it works.
I thought, what’s missing here?
7:16
There is some coaching for them around their vision.
Certainly at McKinsey, you know, you can figure out how to make a lot of money.
7:23
You can figure out how to position yourself to be the preferred stock in the group.
That’s followed by the institutional investor, All Star Analysts.
7:31
It’s fun, but once you’ve done it a few times, you know you’ve done it.
And, and I was thinking, boy, companies could actually do so much more if they included a sense of
7:42
larger purpose in their vision, in what was guiding and information at the time.
McKinsey really wasn’t terribly interested in it the way that I proposed it.
7:52
And so I went about searching for where is the market for what I want to sell and do.
And after, I don’t know, 18 months or so, I found it.
8:01
And it was in this new field called Corporate identity.
This was when. 1983.
8:09
Yeah, exactly.
You know, purpose, corporate identity.
8:12
I mean, that wasn’t purpose.
That was the word that came out like the nine, like 2000 and something, you know.
8:19
So I mean, it’s just, yes, you, you saw things before.
I also had a burning, I had a burning vision.
8:26
I don’t know where it came from.
I think that honestly, my wonderful godmother, Aunt Marie, giving me that book on Greek mythology
8:33
when I was nine years old just opened something up in me that was there and it animated it.
And so this idea of Aritae, you know, of being better, A aspiring to betterness, greatness,
8:47
whatever, Magnaminity really animated my spirit.
So as we continue this journey, I mean, looking back and looking at what you’re doing now, sort of
8:56
where you are today, what were the key moments that led you to where you are now?
My deep knowing from the direct experience of engaging with leaders of the Fortune 50 companies.
9:12
I also have a lucky star because I’ve worked with the companies, always with, with the companies
that had permission and access at that level of influence, whether it was on Wall Street or McKinsey
9:24
or, you know, the first firms that I went to in corporate identity, we were there.
These were the companies that changed, you know, First National Bank to Citibank.
9:32
So I did have that lucky star and I had the experience of sitting down with these people who were
running these companies and in the intimacy of, you know, sharing and answering my question.
9:46
What is your vision for this organization?
What do you want to see it?
9:51
What position do you want to see it in in 5-10 years and what will that have to do with your legacy?
And I had permission to ask those questions and what came back to me.
10:02
Sure, there was always like the the company answer, but with a little probing, a heart opened up and
what I saw in every single one of those and they were men was this maybe we would characterize it to
10:14
as a longing for belonging, this tender intention to really make a difference that mattered for
humans and to be remembered by their loved ones for that and and how they lived their lives.
10:29
So I knew in my whole being that that was in them.
And I also knew from experience, you know, the phrase, a bad system will be a Goodman.
10:40
Every time over my career, I came to appreciate how the system quote, UN quote really would muffle,
stifle and eventually devalue that impulse in us humans.
10:52
And I think that’s kind of where we are today.
I remember you when we spoke and it was a very vivid image, the two images actually that were very
11:00
vivid.
Wall Street, McKinsey.
11:03
There’s something about corporate identity, something about purpose, something about the reason
you’re as business even on this planet.
11:09
Why are you, why are you doing what you’re doing?
OK?
11:11
You want to be a part of that.
And you, you’re on this journey, right?
11:13
There’s something in 1983 and that had you on the Concorde.
So I mean that for me, you know, you’re going between London, New York, London, New York on the
11:21
Concorde, as you say, you were part of reshaping many of the biggest companies that America has
today and based on a lot of the strategies that you helped create.
11:31
And then you woke up 1 morning.
I do want to go back for a minute.
11:34
I don’t want to overstate my influence, but I was helping to inform the decisions that were made
that helped preserve massive equity in organizations, billions and billions and billions of dollars,
11:49
and also helping to shape the decision criteria for what pieces of acquired money center banks to
keep or not keep.
11:56
So anyway, yes, so let’s put it this way.
I had arrived, and I had arrived on my own terms because by this time I had formed my own company.
12:06
I had achieved the material wealth that I never would have imagined.
I had achieved status, stature.
12:14
I was giving keynote addresses at international conferences.
And one day I woke up with ashes in my mouth in my 5th Ave. apt, the taste of ash in my mouth.
12:27
Literally.
You know, they say there are three types of horses.
12:29
There’s like the horse that will just kind of trot its way home because it, no, it’s pointed in that
direction.
12:35
And then there’s the one that needs to hear the crack of the whip.
And then there’s the one that needs to feel the whip and the marrow of its bones.
12:42
And in this case, I was the 3rd type of horse.
And for me, what that was was feeling one morning like I am going to die if I continue to do this
12:55
because it feels pointless.
And it feels somewhat destructive, like I’m supporting a system and a way of being that has such
13:05
powerful momentum, it’s almost impossible to resist.
Not just for me personally, but for everybody involved.
13:12
This is our economic system.
But it feels like death to me.
13:17
And so my body told me.
And then I knew.
13:20
OK, well, I got the message.
And it’s so interesting because my my book, you know, I talk a lot about, you know, there needs to
13:29
be a return on investment.
Companies need to function.
13:33
And I think in no point in time is is any of what I talk about suggesting that we need to be non
governmental organizations or charities.
13:41
But it won’t work for anyone.
If people are waking up with feeling like they’re going to die, that’s not sustainable.
13:46
You know, you mentioned they were all men.
You know, you were one of few women as well in your field at this time.
13:52
How did that shape your perspective Leadership.
In the late 80s, what it did was it showed me that I really needed to resource myself because the
14:02
energetic that was literally coming at me was unsustainable.
And I’m not saying necessarily hostility, just strangeness.
14:11
You know, she’s not a secretary.
That’s a lot, even when it’s not articulated.
14:15
And then that on top of my own little self doubt and imposter syndrome.
So I just really loaded up on support systems.
14:24
I also came to see that there was this absence of what we would associate with the feminine energies
and the feminine principles.
14:35
And it was around the mid 90s.
And I’d say that the notion of soft skills started to be more valued at the same time that the
14:47
notion of teams started to be more valued.
And this is where I’m leading into a point that I wanted to leave you with because I really want
14:56
your perspective on this.
I have dog eared your book.
14:59
Oh, I mean, I’ve dog eared it to death.
You know, I mean, I’m, I feel like you and I have been walking the same path of experience and
15:08
thinking.
I’m just so happy that we’re having this conversation.
15:12
And I am really intrigued to carry forward some theories that I’ve got with you.
And one of them is this, the evidence in our world, the breakdown in the world in terms of, well,
15:24
we’ll call it well-being of society, of humans, we’ll call it potential instability of societal
infrastructures because of the failure of institutions to deliver on the social contract.
15:37
And so there’s this cultural upheaval at the same time that there is a upheaval in the natural
environment that we count on not to shake when we sit down at a table from earthquakes, not to burn
15:50
down, et cetera.
So there’s this confluence of upheaval culturally and in nature, in our living system, and we are
16:00
not well equipped to deal with it.
And I think the fact that we’re not well equipped to deal with it is part of the reason why it
16:06
happened.
And it is that we are between myths.
16:10
There was a myth that sustained our modern contemporary society for a while, maybe we’ll call it
post World War 2, because that kind of gives it a nice short window where the notion that a rising
16:26
tide lifts all boats, we’ll use that one.
And that we humans could afford to be magnanimous and exchange mutual benefit because there was an
16:35
enlightened self-interest in that peace.
The lack of war is good for everybody.
16:40
And so out of that, a lot of what we look at as our system now evolved and the principles seemed
sound, but they didn’t work because the rising tide did not lift all boats.
16:50
And in fact, something else was operating, which was this.
The checks and balances fell apart.
16:55
Today we’re sitting in the midst of the decadent phase of that.
That trend simply has accelerated to the point of odd absurdum.
17:05
Just look at the news every day.
The myth that was built on also was, at least in the States, you know that it is the harder you
17:13
work, the greater the opportunity you’ll have.
And you’ll realize in your life and that everyone has a chance and everyone has an equalized chance.
17:21
Obviously not true.
So we’re without something to believe in.
17:25
If anything, what we have to believe in is might makes right.
He who has the gold wins.
17:30
That’s the golden rule, not the golden rule of, you know, do unto others as you would have them do
unto you.
17:37
Yeah.
You used boats as an analogy, and I’m going to use my partner actually as example.
17:43
He’s a professional sailor.
The reason I’m reflecting on this is because since the age of eight or five, actually, he’s been
17:49
sailing and since the age of a boat, I think he did his first crossing probably at the age of 8 and
16, I think anyway.
17:56
I mean, he’s just literally come back from taking a boat from France to Florida.
So it was about 3 months and he had to actually go all the way down to Cape, Fergie and then over
18:08
basically just to the north of Brazil, Venezuela and then up to Florida just because of he left in
the middle of winter in France.
18:15
And if he went there it would have been possible.
There a lot of hurricanes around that time as well, so in January.
18:20
So it was impossible.
So we had to go really far down anyway.
18:23
So it was like 5000 nautical miles and he just literally just sort of did that.
He got back on when Tuesday of last week and he left on the 25th of November.
18:32
But this is this is life her normal for him.
What’s unbelievable is his relationship, his frustrations actually, when he reflects on how
18:40
government works, how communities work, how how people just interact, connection with ourselves and
with nature.
18:48
His view of everything is totally different to the majority of people that I have conversations
with.
18:53
But I would say the reason for that, the things that he has experienced, I can’t even, I can’t even
imagine.
18:59
It was just him and one other person on a massive catamaran for 5000 nautical miles.
You’re closer to the International Space Station than you are to land when you’re doing these trips.
19:08
You have to be able to read the weather, you have to be able to read the sea.
You have to be able to, you can use all the technology that you want, but you can’t just rely on the
19:17
technology.
You have to have that visceral connection with nature.
19:20
I mean, he also grew up in the Atlantic rainforest.
So I mean he rode horses on his own from 12 years old and would go for like 3 days in the Atlantic
19:29
rainforest on his own with his horse.
The connection he has with the Atlantic rainforest is so totally different.
19:35
His understanding of trees and what just how plants and animals think, it’s so totally different.
Now, the system that we have grown up with being from Canada or the US or you know, growing up in a
19:48
massive city, where the system, the education system, the societal system, we’ve been indoctrinated
into thinking certain ways to behave, to fit the system.
20:00
We are taught to draw within the lines, to be able to follow what the teacher says, because if you
don’t, you don’t get your five stars or whatever.
20:09
But actually we know that we need to challenge systems and we need to think.
Independently and we need to think of others in those connections.
20:17
We’re not really taught that you know, things like self-awareness as well.
The more self aware we are, the less the system and the less those external factors can influence us
20:29
to can sort of manipulate us.
It’s starting now.
20:32
My children go to a Waldorf school and my youngest is doing yoga and meditation.
That did not happen when I was at school.
20:39
Like that’s interesting, but it’s not for everybody.
Not everybody has access to that or these kind of conversations, but that inner development is so
20:47
key to understand our connection with other people, our connection with the environment around us.
But, you know, you hear this rhetoric from certain presidents that have just come into power of just
21:00
insanity that’s coming out of their mouth.
But they also haven’t grown up even having to consider other people.
21:07
It hasn’t even been part of that education.
You know, I just think the more that the cities get built, the more we’re cutting down trees, the
21:15
less connection we have with nature, the net, the less we even stop and think about that connection
with nature, the more we can have it.
21:22
The more we can interact with other people, the more that we can have those connections with people,
with nature, with ecosystems, the more we understand ourselves and the more we understand our impact
21:32
on those stakeholders or other beings around us.
You know, I mean, just as a crazy, crazy, crazy example, I have possums in my garden now.
21:43
I had this possum who kept coming into my kitchen literally every single night to eat my fruit.
So I had to put things over my fruit because I have like fruit in Brazil, you just have tons of
21:53
fruit.
And so I had these things to cover all my fruit.
21:57
Anyway, this has been happening.
I would sometimes come downstairs and the possums in my kitchen and I’ve literally done everything I
22:02
possibly can take I have.
Literally.
22:04
Until I don’t know how this possum kept getting in, but it would come in and then it would leave.
Google was on this trip he had he had Internet on the boat so I could talk to him.
22:11
So he’s in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and it’s really weird.
The possum is looking at me through the window.
22:18
It’s so strange.
I’ve never seen the possum try.
22:20
It’s like he’s trying to get in.
I looked at this possum looking at me through the glass of my door and it was, it was on the bars of
22:26
the window.
And so it was looking at me and my dog was looking at the possum.
22:30
And I said that to Google.
And he said, I think the possum is asking for help.
22:34
And I said, really, that’s weird.
I don’t know why suddenly today it’s asking for help.
22:38
Help.
I don’t know why that would be.
22:39
He goes, I think it’s asking for help and I said, well, I literally can’t help Opossum.
I don’t know how to help this possum and I don’t really want this possum in my house.
22:46
But like I don’t know how to help Opossum.
Anyway, I didn’t let it in obviously I opened the garage, it went up to the roof as it always does.
22:54
After that day, the Opossum never came back, never came back.
And it was eating the fruit in my kitchen literally probably for around 9 years literally every
23:03
night and it was looking at me.
I got a picture of it because I even posted it on Instagram, but Guga said.
23:08
I think the possum’s asking for help now.
It’s such a subtle little thing, but that never even entered into my head that it would be asking
23:16
for help.
But because he has such a connection with nature and just his whole life is just this connection
23:21
with nature and everything he does, he was able to put himself in the, in the like the, the mind of
the possum.
23:29
And it’s just a silly example.
But the more we can connect with others and the more that we can connect with nature, the more that
23:35
that just becomes second nature, The more we realize that, no, it’s probably better not to cut down
all those trees because actually we need those trees because the animals need them, but we need them
23:44
to breathe.
I mean, what you’re saying is just such a perfect illustration of what I think is needed.
23:51
I know that’s, I think one of the questions that you had for me and what I think we have to
reactivate the web of life that is us.
24:02
If there’s a a mythos, A myth myth shift, it’s from being the neurotic overachiever.
I’ll talk about myself.
24:11
You know, the one, the smartest guy in the room, the star or the star leader of teams.
I mean, however you look at it, the solo right to being in the flow with and that’s a very big
24:24
statement.
This is the thing to reactivate in US, you know, and your book is all about honoring that innate
24:33
sense of humanity that we have.
And that word humanity doesn’t mean human, it means soil.
24:39
It comes from the Latin humus soil.
Earth.
24:44
Earthiness.
So the idea of thinking that this thing, this Homo sapiens, is what humanity it’s not.
24:51
We are porous, literally porous, materially, energetically, be in a room where something bad’s gone
down.
25:00
You’ll feel it the minute you walk in the room, and the other way around too.
And the competencies that we have access to are unlimited.
25:11
And so the new motos is, for me, it is about blowing with the dynamic equilibrium of the web of
life, finding the flow individually and collectively and the joy that comes with that.
25:26
And I know you’ve experienced this.
I know your clients have.
25:29
I know that we all know.
It’s so edifying when you can empower someone to thrive.
25:37
It’s like you actually talked about it in your interview, the last podcast.
I think when you were interviewed, you talked about the thrill of seeing that spark in somebody’s
25:49
eyes when they light up with like, wow, what it means to be fully alive.
What that brings us to because you know you’ve gone from.
26:00
That.
Greed, that dark side of corporate America, we’ll say America just because you’re based in America,
26:07
but sort of corporates had that catalystic experience to then where your thinking got to, which was
in the area of corporate responsibility.
26:15
And I know that that was in the sort of late 90s, mid 90s, which was also before most people were
talking about corporate social responsibility.
26:22
But I just wonder because you wrote the economic argument for corporate social responsibility back
in the day, and we’re talking 252728 years ago.
26:32
So I mean, that was a long time, but the, the world has moved on from there.
That was sort of an argument for something where people didn’t even see any necessity for it.
26:39
I would say now people probably still don’t see the necessity for corporate social responsibility.
I think it’s moved on to a completely different place now.
26:46
It’s like a necessity.
It’s almost differently.
26:49
And I just wonder from that if there’s an economic argument for where things need to get to.
You’re talking about the flow of life and that feeling.
26:57
And I am as spiritual as you are, and I hear you in many, many, many ways that if I was in a
boardroom and I was talking to the CEO of a company and I’m going to say it’s a man just because I
27:10
want to, you know, the white man CEO, If I’m talking about the flow of life, spirituality, blah,
blah, blah, they’re just going to look at me like I have.
27:18
And I’m totally generalizing one, having it as a man.
And also the fact that they would look at me like I have 10 heads.
27:23
But let’s just talk about the stats out there.
We know what they are.
27:27
What would be the economic argument for where things are going, for what you feel for what I’m
talking about, for those people who are non believers from your point of view, having worked on Wall
27:38
Street and.
Yeah, and and by the way, each of us humans living on this planet now need both arguments because we
27:46
are in the system.
The business case is one of risk management.
27:50
For the most conservative organizations, it’s risk management.
You remember, and I remember in the day 101 country risk management was a factor in investing.
28:03
And what’s the components of country risk management?
Stability, social stability, value stream stability.
28:09
Well, that’s country.
Apply that to the whole economic, global economic system.
28:15
The risk profile, the instability risk is sky high.
And it’s from both of those factors that I said the cultural turmoil and the physical
28:27
infrastructure, environmental turmoil.
So if you’re going to be planning to keep your company around, you’re going to factor in all of
28:36
those risks.
Now, unfortunately, and this is another conversation which I’d really like to have with you, the
28:43
branding bubble has really did a number on something risk factors that are related to this called
environmental risk, social risk and governance risk.
28:53
They got to be branded and then the marketing community just turned them into empty jargon and they
they’re getting lampooned.
29:02
But the truth is that if you’re running a company, you’ve got to have a good sense of risk.
And the risks are huge these days.
29:09
Environmental risk, social risk, the notion of DEI is coming back under different branding.
It’s not being promoted.
29:19
So I’d say the economic argument for what we’re talking about and what we’re talking about is
knowing your degrees of freedom in a hyper interconnected interdependent system.
29:34
It’s systems thinking, it’s systems planning.
And you could look at it from as a conservative organization as risk management.
29:42
Now, if you’re also thinking about growth and possibly even leadership and getting premium pricing
and premium preference as a partner, then you look at ways to differentiate yourself on an added
29:57
value.
So maybe you’re less, that’s the conservative company, right?
30:01
Maybe you’re less conservative in certain parts of your portfolio business and you’re going to say,
you know what, it would really be useful to attract the kind of talent that wants to innovate and be
30:12
part of something bigger.
So we’re going to look at opportunities to do that to differentiate ourselves and advantage
30:20
ourselves as a company through innovation.
You’re going to have to track that talent.
30:25
And what does tap talent care about today?
It’s not just money, right?
30:29
Top talent, thank God.
Culturally, there are generational preferences for well-being, their personal well-being and
30:39
collective well-being and conscience.
So it’s a continuum of client appetite and depending upon it, there will be more or less appetite
30:49
for system mutuality and contribution.
But I will tell you Philippa, that is not where the action is for me because I think the system is
31:00
just going to implode if it continues on this path of justifying the business case.
Because behind the business case is this insane monster called casino capitalism and the financing
31:16
that the appetite of finance is like an unbridled monster.
And it is even independent of the most rational business strategies.
31:27
It’s not going to invest in your company because you’re being conservative and prudent.
It’s going to invest in the next hot thing that it can create a derivative over.
31:37
So especially when AI gets into this, if the ethos continues as just maximize profit and AI is
behind finance strategies, it’s done.
31:51
We’re we’re done.
We’re done.
31:53
The conversation before when we were in the corporate social responsibility era, we talked about
it’s important for corporates to do good because it’s the right thing to do.
32:05
Before people talked about DEI from the point of view of it’s the right thing to do to have a
diverse workforce.
32:14
What we’re actually recognizing now back to the business case is if you don’t have a purpose, if
people aren’t engaged, you do not have highly productive workforce and therefore you’re you’re not
32:28
going to be as competitive.
If you don’t have a diverse workforce, your thinking isn’t going to be as competitive and therefore
32:34
you’re not going to be as be as competitive.
So there’s now a business case.
32:40
I guess my question to you is this is terrifying if AI is, if it’s still all about profit, it’s all
about, you know, as much money as possible, as much money as possible.
32:50
There is always going to be a business case, unfortunately, but it’s true.
I don’t you know how that changes and like what is the business case for that not happening?
33:00
What is the argument for that not happening?
The insurance industry, I mean look at the reinsurance sector because they’re the ones who insure
33:08
the insurers.
So they are like the early warning signals, watch what they’re doing because the impulse for self
33:15
preservation they’re on the line for.
Yeah, of course.
33:19
Environmental destruction and not only, I mean, you know, social upheaval, countries, instability,
you know, so the system does have a natural breaking.
33:32
It’s like when the breaker goes off.
Yeah, exactly.
33:34
Sitting goes out.
Exactly.
33:35
Yeah, which happens by the way, all the times I’m living in a really, really, really, really old
house.
33:40
So it’s, you know, the electrics are so, so, so old.
I know about the breaker having doesn’t find it and get it going again.
33:47
And they’ll do what they need to do to preserve, you know, value when you live in California and you
cannot get insurance for your home and therefore you cannot get a building permit.
33:58
Who’s holding the bag?
The local governments, the federal government.
34:02
And look at them.
Look at what’s happening today.
34:06
They’re being gutted.
I say, is it hurting enough yet?
34:10
You know.
When’s it going to hurt enough that we can give up this idea that the win lose game is the only game
34:19
in town?
When is it going to hurt enough for us to say, you know what, we have a shared fate.
34:26
And if you go, I go.
So enlightened self-interest, I think will be the next braking system with the finance sector.
34:37
That machine, it’s like the law of a machine and government, which operate irrationally.
They’re like totally irrational, both of them.
34:48
And they have the power.
They have huge power.
34:51
I know I sound a little negative, but I have faith that us humans, to the extent that we will
survive, we will get disgusted enough with this system and say my heart hurts, my kids don’t have
35:07
food on the table.
There’s going to be a better way and here it is.
35:11
So I’m working on like you, illustrating some of the better ways, working with people who are
committed to being change makers that embrace the new muthos of a give and take dynamic equilibrium
35:26
web of life and for humans to find our place in it.
And that’s what the Soul branding process does.
35:32
Can you bring to life what it is that you are doing so that people can picture it?
So let’s say that you’re sitting in your, you’re an executive meeting, you know, your executive team
35:43
is all around and you’ve got your CEO, you’ve got your strategist, you’ve got your CFO, you’ve got
your trend analysis, your marketing people, your HR person and then general managers.
35:56
OK, everyone has a role in this system and the glue of the system is some kind of shared ethos as
well as goals as well as tangible goals that the ethos kind of perpetuates.
36:11
Ethos is like the grease around the wheel when you’re faced with a decision.
You know, the external world has changed and now you need to really dig deep and figure out who are
36:23
we and how do we deal with this.
Most of our assumptions are going out the window and you know what?
36:28
You’ve got two or three years runway, but after that you just don’t know and you notice that the
culture is crumbling.
36:36
All of those assumptions, you know, the values that we thought worked, being clever, being
competitive, being, you know, smart enough to work the loopholes, that hasn’t worked.
36:47
It’s time to return to 1st principles.
So sitting around the table, if you were to take this process as a path to come to a deeper sense of
37:01
first principles, like who are we and what do we have to work with given who we are?
That’s the first place.
37:08
And that’s what we call the values self audit.
And I don’t know enough about your process, but I presume there’s a phase where as a leader you
37:19
would welcome people to address and ask beautiful questions.
You know, John O’Donoghue said beautiful questions create beautiful minds.
37:28
You start with if you could, if you were to have lived the life that you wanted it, because it’s
very personal.
37:38
What moves you to tears when you think you lived your life in that way?
In 2003, I published a piece in the Journal of Business Ethics called Managing Brand in the New
37:50
Stakeholder Economy back then.
And you can see this process, how it works out, how different companies have followed it.
37:58
It’s still the same.
You start with the heart and soul, and each individual looks very privately and deeply and
38:06
personally and in a safe space in a structured process to identify those values in their life and
the hallmarks in their life.
38:15
And then there’s a collective process.
And so this is a retreat where individuals go as individuals, not necessarily as a group of people
38:24
from a company.
So it’s different individuals and they come together.
38:27
You have a self reflection piece, but then it’s group.
Yeah, Actually when we do it within corporations, it’s it cascades from the seat sweep down a few
38:39
levels and then it’s several days.
And then typically directors of different units will come together and the functions will come
38:47
together and say, OK, well, if we actually live these values, what would our product line look like?
Yeah, amazing.
38:57
Now the second point that I want to follow up with you on is this is a separate conversation.
There is an extraordinary role for the marketing and mark com competence in this and I know that you
39:11
have you know background in that sector as I do like with advertising.
Think of the creative people, the artists that you know that have wound up in that field, right?
39:23
Think of the empathetic, the empathic competencies of those individuals.
And what if they actually were like Jonas, you know, the double faced God.
39:35
Facing those users, I won’t want to call them consumers anymore.
And facing the corporation, what if they were more like the stewards of that empathy?
39:47
And the benefit to the company is then they are the input into the governance of trust.
Now the trust barometer, which we all follow, right?
39:57
I freaked out in 2018.
I was doing a big project for a global Deans of Engineering conference.
40:07
And one of the things that I saw is that the trust index went negative for the first time, which
means that there was a certain population that trusted that the institutions were going to screw
40:18
them.
Not how much do you trust I trust them this time.
40:21
No, I trust that they’re going to screw me.
That set off alarms for me.
40:26
And that’s the other risk factor that I would like to see corporations be sensitized to these days.
So by the time they get out of that stage of exploring, if we actually live this value, what would
40:40
our product portfolio look like?
What would our strategy be as it relates to partners?
40:45
Then you’ve got people alive with, wow, these are the programs that we could put in place, blah,
blah, blah.
40:50
Then it comes back and there’s this collective appetite and aliveness and then it goes back into,
OK, now we’re going to go take this ambition and passion and we’re going to see how does it fit into
41:05
trend analysis.
So stage 2 and sole branding is all right now we’re doing a business analysis.
41:11
What are the key factors for success over the next foreseeable, over the next, you know, planning
period, five years, if you could even plan that.
41:21
And then there’s scenario planning in there.
So, but they’re starting from the place of who I am as a human being in a web of life.
41:30
And then the other stages are then you go into a positioning phase in the marketplace and the last
thing you do is branding.
41:40
Just to piggyback on one of the things that you talked about in you talked about that God and the
sort of two faced God and sort of being able to sort of have that face to the communities and that
41:49
face to the corporates.
I love that visual.
41:52
I would say that that’s exactly what we do as well.
So it really is about that outside in thinking and the importance of that vulnerability.
42:01
So that importance of the vulnerability to say, I don’t know and we need to ask and, and actually we
need to know if what we’re doing is serving our stakeholders, but also if it’s the right thing for
42:12
our stakeholders.
So is it impacting them, but also is it serving them?
42:16
And until you’re actually able to say I don’t know and have that humility to then just say I need to
go and find out.
42:25
So that’s a big part of what we do.
We take people who are from New York City or from London or whatever, and they’re developing
42:31
projects with communities and completely other parts of the world where it’s literally impossible
for these individuals to know the answer because they don’t come from that place.
42:40
But it’s unbelievable how difficult it is for these individuals who are used to running big pieces
of business, who are used to being in control.
42:47
They’re used to having everyone looking up to them for the answers.
And suddenly they need to say, I don’t know.
42:53
And I’ve had people crying on the phone to me and they’re either in person in wherever they’re at,
or even if they’re just working as a virtual team to solve whatever it is that they’re solving.
43:02
And they suddenly, you know, it’s the day before the presentation that they’re supposed to give, and
they still don’t know what they’re going to say.
43:08
And often, I’ll say, have you spoken to the people you’re developing whatever it is for?
And 99% of the time, even though we’ve been through the process and they’re supposed to talk to
43:19
them, blah, blah, they always say no.
And then it’s OK, Well, what?
43:24
Maybe maybe you should.
And then it’s unbelievable how that then just forcing them to actually be humble, to understand that
43:33
they probably don’t have all the answers.
That changes the way that they work moving forward because they suddenly recognize the power of
43:40
bringing voices in, of having other people contribute and that it’s impossible for us to have all
the answers and have that sort of egotistical vision of our, you know, our way of leading, which is,
43:52
you know, I am the all knowing and everyone kind of feeds into me just isn’t the way that the world
can work anymore.
43:58
I love quotes.
You have already mentioned a few in this conversation, but I just don’t know if you have anything
44:04
else that you’d like to share as we wrap.
Up.
44:07
I think that I would just state again that the poet John O’Donoghue, who died a few years ago, an
Irish poet and also a priest.
44:15
I would also suggests that people look him up, whether it’s on YouTube, so you can hear his voice
saying these incredibly transformative words, between which words there is magic and there is
44:30
Ruthos.
And the one quote that I actually have found inspires people, whether I’m addressing a group of 700
44:38
people and putting them into a 15 minute breakout to answer this question or having an intimate
conversation with a change maker is beautiful.
44:48
Questions create beautiful minds.
Beautiful, Elsie, thank you so much for joining us.
44:56
I just, we could have gone down so many more paths and routes and, and directions in this
conversation.
45:03
And I just, gosh, I look forward to our next conversation, but thank you so much for joining us
today.
45:08
Thank you so much, I feel full me.
Too.
45:13
Until next time.
Chao.
45:17
Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.
I hope you enjoyed listening.
45:21
Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.
If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world, that’s just what
45:30
we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.
We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company
45:40
to 500 people around a business.
Or check out my book Return on Humanity Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.
45:49
You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the
forefront of competition.
45:57
You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.
Get in touch and I can explain more.
46:05
A huge thanks to Beja Naviera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.
I hope we’ll meet up again soon.
