0:03

Welcome to the show where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.

Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.

0:21

Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the global North or the global S, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.

My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed are large and established companies focusing on the power of human assets and putting people first.

0:46

What examples are out there?

Well, these are regular questions I’m asked, which is why I’m so excited for you to listen to this conversation because Kathy is going to bring a lot of this to life for us.

Hello, and welcome to episode 92 of TIE Unearthed.

1:06

Today I’m speaking with Kathy Hoy.

Kathy is a seasoned learning leader with over two decades of experience in learning and organizational development.

She now runs CLO 100, which provides CLO community membership and the Learning Leaders program dedicated to the development of L&D leaders, equipping them with the tools and knowledge they need to create high performing learning organizations.

1:33

Today, we’ll dive into the successes and benefits of CLO 100 and why Kathy founded the program with her business partner Robert.

Kathy and I then explore the power of a people first approach in business, emphasizing how connection, belonging and empathy can lead to a competitive edge.

1:52

We discuss real world challenges in the industry, including insights from Kathy’s work on improving company culture at Tesco and the transformative impact of focusing on human competencies.

Join us as we share practical strategies for enhancing workplace happiness and building a positive company culture.

2:14

So whether you’re a business leader, a people manager, or just simply passionate about personal growth, this episode is packed with valuable insights and inspiring stories.

So TuneIn and be part of the conversation on making a meaningful difference in the workplace.

2:36

Oh, Kathy, I’m so happy we’re having this conversation finally.

Just, you know, thank you for being here and thank you for taking the time and thank you for us just being able to get your pearls of wisdom, which there’s so much of it.

So thank you.

No, not at all.

2:52

Thank you very much for having me.

I hope I can provide some pearls.

I will be digging deep.

No.

Well, I’m always super inspired whenever we speak.

And you’ve been this light in this world since we’ve met and, and I appreciate you and I appreciate all of your support over the years.

3:08

But I’m also, you know, I, you’re a friend.

And I just think it’s great to get your story out there as well, just because you’re doing such interesting stuff.

And I think more people need to know about it.

I see.

Let’s just kick off.

I quite like getting into the background of someone’s story before we talk immediately about what they’re doing right now.

3:27

I think it’s really interesting to follow someone’s trajectory and see how the interesting puzzle pieces of life come together.

So if you could just talk to us about your background and a little bit about you before what you’re doing now?

Yeah, of course.

3:43

I mean, look at heart, I’m a learning and OD board.

And probably like most people in learning and development, I kind of fell into it, I’d love to say, but it was always a kind of strategic plan and everything since leaving education.

But it just really isn’t something that’s talked about or certainly wasn’t when I was, you know, at school, at college as a career option.

4:02

So I didn’t know about it.

And I think that’s similar to, you know, a lot of people in my network actually.

But I did fall into it and, you know, I really enjoyed it.

My first glimpse of it was when I was in retail.

And I thought I really like this because it was quite rewarding to see other people getting something from training as it was then.

4:20

And that feeling, So it’s probably quite selfish really, that feeling, that kind of positive buzz you get because someone’s actually got something positive from something you’ve done or something you’ve helped contribute to.

It’s a really nice feeling.

And yeah, that kind of carried on really.

4:36

I thought this is something I’m really interested in.

So stayed with different organisations.

I mean, I think, yeah, I think I’ve probably been LMD for about 24 years now.

I’ve worked mostly in corporate environments, in big global corporates, working in global roles, which I have really enjoyed because I just love travelling and I love being in other countries.

4:55

And I think that, you know, you can learn something that helps your day job and then you can learn something that just helps you as a person.

And I haven’t got that more than from being in another country and spending weeks or even months somewhere else.

It’s, it’s been the best part of my career I think.

5:11

I mean, I’ve worked for Tesco, Expedia, Coke, Soho House.

I’ve had some really amazing opportunities actually for some brilliant organisations and brilliant brands.

You know, interestingly they do things wrong as well.

And so that’s been a big learning for me and it’s contributed to me wanting to stay in learning and development, really to see what can I do?

5:29

Is there something I can do to help that, to fix that in our industry?

But yeah, my, my background is learning and development.

And then about two years ago, myself and my business partner decided that we wanted to start our own business, a new business that actually focused on developing those that develop others.

5:47

So we basically work with learning leaders, so heads of learning, chief learning officers, learning directors, regardless of the title, essentially those people that are responsible for the learning and development strategy in their organization.

And to help them develop, not just within the learning and development space, but actually help them develop so they can operate at a more strategic level in their organization, have more influence and obviously ultimately help their organisations perform.

6:15

So yeah, that’s what I do now with with CLA 100.

So what was the catalyst to what you’re doing now?

You saw this need.

How did this come to life?

And how did you and your business partners suddenly realize, you know what?

There’s a need for this, there’s a place for it, and we’ve got the answer.

6:32

Yeah, it’s a really good question that to be honest, the catalyst might have been a bottle of wine, but there was definitely passion on both sides, you know, for myself and Robert, because of our experience in the industry and his background is quite different to mine.

So whilst he’s been in learning and development, actually he worked for a considerable time at an organization that was one of Europe’s biggest resellers for CIPD qualifications.

6:53

So he was coming at this from a very different angle and I was more practical.

I’ve been doing the head of learning job, blah, blah, blah.

There’s no development for these people.

And I think it was probably my first role that had to report to board level.

When I realized actually how ill prepared I was for that kind of role, I thought, well, that’s ridiculous.

7:12

I’ve been spending time organizing executive level programs for so many people over so many years and then sort of realizing, but actually I’ve never put myself through anything like that.

I’ve never prepared myself for this.

And because you see so few learning and development people represented at C-Suite, you just sort of, I suppose, don’t think of it as a career move.

7:30

And so you don’t prepare yourself.

And the more I thought about it, and it started frustrating me, to be honest.

And then I thought, well, you’ve got to do something about this.

You can’t keep moaning about it because no one’s going to listen to you.

So we just decided, you know, he was just as passionate because from Robert’s perspective, it was very much, look, CIPD is great.

7:47

It’s really big in our industry.

But actually the CIPD qualifications were much more, I suppose, HR generalist than specifically L&D focused and particularly at that learning leader level.

So yeah, I think when we kind of put that together, we thought there’s definitely something here.

8:03

I think outside of that though, there was probably a bigger driver, which was about creating networks, creating communities for people, because that’s actually quite a lonely role to be ahead of learning and development.

You know, you’ve got potentially a really big team.

You could work in a really big organization.

8:19

Everyone sees you as the person that’s got the answer.

Everyone comes to you with their development needs.

You may well have peers in the business, but they’re also your internal customers.

So it’s really hard to kind of say actually, do you know what, I need help with this or I don’t know the answer to this.

I know you will think I should know everything, but I don’t.

8:35

And actually the thought of being able to create these safe communities where people could just say, could someone help me with this?

Has anyone been through this, you know, and just put their hands up and I suppose be a little bit vulnerable.

That was probably the bigger passion behind it, in all fairness.

That is so smart.

8:51

And until we’re having this conversation, I hadn’t seen it like that because it’s quite lonely, isn’t it?

I mean, when you are that head of talent OR head of people.

And it’s interesting.

At my book launch, Sam Theobald, who’s the chief people officer at Next 15, she started her part of the panel talk by saying, who here works in with people, you know, in the people area of business and, you know, human resources.

9:17

And so people put up their hands and she said, OK, who hates the word human resources?

And it’s like, yeah, yeah, I think we’ve got a bit of a PR problem because it’s not the most exciting thing to go into.

And actually many times people aren’t empowered enough within business.

We’re now talking about the importance of people first.

9:35

But even still, that’s only for the really open minded CEOs and Coos who actually get it and understand the power of it and that yes, it is a competitive advantage, but it’s quite lonely that you’re sort of.

And I had to have community and to have these forums where people can talk.

9:50

It’s really important because it’s an area that is growing and is gaining momentum and power.

And I think the more that we can share best practice and and share things that have worked share, yeah, just strategies that are resonating with people, we all win.

10:08

Right.

And actually sharing stuff that hasn’t worked too.

And that’s what I’m really loving seeing.

Believe me, I’m one of the first that could have a lot to share in that space, you know, but I do think there’s so much more learning from stuff that didn’t go well.

It’s like, you know, I always think back to kind of managers worked four years ago and I learnt more from the ones that I didn’t like or the ones that I thought were a bit rubbish, to be honest, because I thought, well, I’m never going to be like that.

10:31

I will never do.

And it probably stuck with me more, although I, I have some lovely memories of amazing managers as well.

I think there’s definitely that just that ability to share.

That’s kind of what I think makes the community.

And you know, we’ve got the CLO community membership, which is mostly online based at the moment, although we’re just looking at introducing in person meet ups and things because I do think that’s really important where you can do it.

10:54

There’s just something still from meeting in person that’s just really different.

And so, so there’s there’s kind of that side of it.

But actually with our learning leaders program, that cohort are so close now.

They have become such a close community.

We’re only probably not even four months into the program.

11:10

It’s just an amazing support network that they’ve created.

It’s an amazing group.

They’re wonderful people anyway, they’re all heads of learning.

So they all know what it’s like.

You know, we’ve got people in global corporates, we’ve got people in public sector, we’ve got people in charities, but they all know what the roles like.

11:25

They might have slightly different challenges, they might have different ways of getting around it, but actually they, they all have each other’s back as well.

And they’re there to support each other, which is I think the most beneficial thing.

You know, I don’t want to downplay the program.

I clearly, I think the program’s good as well.

But I I actually think they’re going to get more out of being connected with each other than anything we could formally provide them with.

11:45

You know what, it’s funny because I to write my book, I was part of a program to just get that thinking off the ground.

And it was this virtual online initiative and, and you know, then it just grew and helped me actually write the actual book.

But I, we created a little cohort at the time that sort of kept us accountable and kept us asking questions and being able to write it.

12:05

But I’ve stayed in touch with a couple of the people and we have a group on LinkedIn.

We still had conversations as we are getting ready for our launch.

We helped one another.

We’ll know each other probably forever.

And I just think it’s, it is very rich to have these types of chords.

12:21

A lot of my programs with as well, our cohort based and people call it their mojo coffee when they have the TIE conversations and as a group get together to brainstorm how they’re going to solve whatever it is that they’re solving and it sort of gets them out of the day-to-day and working with people on a similar thing and you, you know, you all know what you’re working towards.

12:42

It’s powerful to be able to create that with like minded people who are going through similar things and having the same kind of challenges.

It’s really powerful and I imagine that of course the contents going to be incredible, but it’s a huge thing to also have that community.

That is really the the bonus I think from it.

12:58

And I and I, I really hope and I anticipate that they will be a close community long after this program finishes.

That’s what that’s that’s of course what everyone wants, right?

I mean, and that’s why I get excited about learning and development and it’s stuff that I’m doing as well because and is it selfish?

13:14

I don’t know.

Maybe it’s just we like people.

We like seeing people grow.

We like bringing people together.

I feel like I’m a connector.

I like sort of seeing potential connections with initiatives or people and I yeah, the fact that we can do that and bring people who will gain something from it together is just a wonderful position to be in.

13:32

So yeah, yes.

So going into a little bit more detail about CLO 100, you know what is working and what are some of the challenges and what are you excited about?

I’m the 1st to always talk about things that aren’t working so it’s just in my nature.

13:48

I think someone described me recently as being hypercritical and they may have a point, but actually that’s the the kind of thing that drives me as well, right?

Because I really like to know how we can make something better.

I don’t think I could ever leave something alone, going to be honest.

I’ve got a list as long as my arm of things we’re learning from this program and things that we are changing literally in the moment A to improve this cohorts experience.

14:10

But then, you know, more longer term, how do we improve it for cohorts going forward?

So there’s a lot that I think we can always do, right?

I mean, I would look at probably any situation and tell you how it could be improved.

It’s just how my brain works and mostly a situation that that I’m involved with or if it’s directly to do with me or my business, I can, I can totally see the, the things I’m sure a lot of us can the things that are wrong with it first, right?

14:32

But I have to admit we’re also getting a lot right.

And I think the, the community piece is working so well.

I think that the structure of, of the program is working really well.

The engagement in our membership is working really well.

The relationships we’re building with our partners is phenomenal.

14:49

You know, and, and that wasn’t something I really anticipated at the start, having these brilliant, you know, partner relationships and we are working with some of the most amazing people and companies and I love that.

It really excites me to think, OK, is there a new partnership we can explore this week?

You know, what direction can we take this in?

15:04

And I think that’s probably one of the things I mean, there’s, there’s lots that get me excited And look, when you, you run your own business that there has to be a lot that gets you excited, doesn’t there?

Otherwise you would just lie on Earth when you’re doing this, yeah.

Absolutely.

But but yeah, things like that, things like exploring new relationships with partners, finding out how we can improve what we’re doing now, those are the things that I suppose I find motivating more than anything.

15:28

For the listeners and for me too, because obviously we have had conversations at length about all of this, but I think just in a nutshell, can you just explain what it is?

I mean, you’ve explained who it’s for and I understand that it’s, I think it’s 12 months, but just what can someone expect?

15:44

What’s the layout?

So we’ve got I suppose two parts to our business.

One is a membership.

So CLO membership is relatively new.

We kind of launched the end of last year, but now we’re really, we’ve got a kind of strategy and a plan behind it.

We’ve just got Andy Lancaster on board, ex CIPD head of learning, because he’s got a new book out around learning strategy, learning communities, and it’s actually a real passion of his.

16:05

So it’s wonderful to be working with him in the membership and kind of online community space.

That’s kind of one part of bread and butter, if you like.

The main part of our business and the reason we we really exist is the Learning Leaders programme, which essentially is a 12 month programme for senior learning leaders.

16:22

We take them through a number of different topics and modules over the year.

It’s a mix of virtual webinars, interviews with experts, people like, you know, Jim Kirkpatrick or Charles Jennings or Laura Overton, They get to interview them and, and, and have that exposure.

16:37

We have a couple of face to face events as well, which I mean, we’ve just had our first last month, which was just brilliant.

I mean, it just went wonderfully.

And to see the group come together in person.

Was it just another level?

I mean, they’d already met a few times virtually.

They’ve been in breakout groups together and, and all of this.

16:55

And it was lovely when we first started because everyone kind of came in and felt like they knew each other already.

So that that was really nice.

But obviously that face to FaceTime, especially the socializing in the evening with dinner and drinks, and it just helps to to build those relationships.

So that was really, really great.

And then, you know, another part of the program is it’s actually that everyone has their own success coach as well to really help them develop as an individual, but also to help them apply some of what they’ve learned back in their organization if needs be.

17:19

And then at the end of it all, because we partner with Leeds University Business School, the participants receive an executive level certificate in strategic learning leadership.

So it’s also a way for them to demonstrate actually all their years of experience, not just what they’ve just learned now, but as some sort of level of recognition because there really isn’t anything else to say.

17:38

Actually, I invest in myself as a learning.

There’s a lot out there that we can do in L&D either not specifically for our level, it’s more at the kind of trainer facilitator level or you’re looking at something that’s actually more HR kind of generalist focused and not, not L&D.

17:53

So I think it’s nice as well for them to get that, that recognition at the end.

As you know, I have written a book called Return on Humanity, which you have very kindly talked about and and shared within your network.

But the focus is, you know, from reading it, but also just conversations we’ve had is very much focused on rather than being profit first and only focusing on how much money a company can make.

18:17

And then to the people coming second, it’s talking about how important obviously it is to be more people 1st and people centric.

And that profit does follow.

And actually it’s a competitive advantage if this is your, your strategy and how typical business and the the more conventional way of seeing business is quite outdated.

18:36

It isn’t understanding the importance obviously, of how people feel and creating that connection and belonging and the importance of people feeling empowered so that they want to stay in a business.

And so, you know, obviously what you’re doing is you’re focusing on the education of the people leaders.

18:55

My work and my book obviously is focused on the importance as leaders to be able to tap into your human assets, as I call them, and being empathetic and active listening in order to create those human company cultures.

And having worked in L&D for so long, I just wonder, you know, from the point of view of being people first, happiness in business, people having that feeling of connection and belonging in business.

19:23

Obviously, I’ve written a book about it and I feel really strongly about it.

But I just wonder from your length of time working in L&D, the conversations that you’re having with these leaders who are no doubt facing a lot of this as well.

I just wonder.

I’m about to give a presentation actually.

19:40

The theme is happiness in business as a business strategy.

You know, I do believe that being more human is a competitive advantage, but like I say, not all CEOs get it.

Not all Coos get it.

They feel like it’s just sort of this warm fuzzy thing and we need to really focus on business, you know, the hard business.

20:00

And I just wonder, what do you think?

Does this come up?

Do you have any examples that you can share of the power of human cultures?

Why is this important to you?

I’m just just more of a talking around it really and just curious to know what you.

Think I’ve actually have been thinking about this of EBIT since your book came out to be honest.

20:18

You know, I see kind of pieces in our industry every now and again someone writes A blog about something around this space or starts a discussion.

I’d really like to see much more momentum behind this.

I have to admit, I think the one thing that might drive it is the massive focus on AI right now.

20:34

There are now people kind of going, OK, AI is brilliant, but let’s not forget all the human skills we have and the kind of human behaviours.

And actually let’s look at AI in a different way.

AI can take care of all the stuff that actually maybe humans can’t do or or shouldn’t do.

So that actually we can focus on being more human in the workplace and focusing on things like developing our empathy for others and how we we work in the organization, how we manage people.

20:58

So I’m starting to see it come up more and more.

And I think the fact that AI is absolutely everywhere, it will naturally bring out another side and, and other people will want to kind of find some sort of balance.

But I mean, you’re, you’re absolutely right.

I think the current state of business is pretty scary really in the industry generally, I think low trust, high disengaged workforce, particularly younger workforce and generally what apparently seems to be kind of widespread unhappiness.

21:25

I think this is really crucial.

We we have to do something about this.

And obviously you know you, you’ve said this and we know that historically companies are predominantly more worried about their bottom line than than anything else.

But the irony is their bottom line would be much more positively impacted if their focus was on people.

21:42

So I there’s definitely more of an education piece needed.

I worked for Tesco, probably trying to think now maybe 15 years ago in their global LMD team and Tesco, I mean, it still is massive, but then it was huge.

It was, I don’t know, 500,000 employees across 14 countries.

21:59

It was crazy big.

You know, people talk about making changes in organisations and they talk about culture change as if it’s as if it’s something you just, I don’t know exactly.

Yes.

You imagine trying to change the culture of an organization of that size and scale.

22:18

We knew we were in it for the long haul.

I wasn’t there for much of it.

I mean, I spent probably three years at Tesco and it was only probably my last year there that that I actually was involved in this project.

But they knew this was going to be a 10 year at least kind of piece of work.

So I think for for a start, they really came across as a company that was invested for the right reasons.

22:35

To admit that it’s going to take that long and to know how much was going to be involved in doing it, I thought was really big and it really stood out to me.

But the bit that that I kind of remember was we started with almost an analysis of the current culture, as you’d probably expect, which took months anyway, looking at data, looking at reasons for people were leaving, running focus groups, actually having to provide an environment or create an environment where people felt safe enough to give you their feedback.

23:00

That was, you know, a whole other story.

And you know, you’re spending kind of nearly a year just gathering the kind of as is situation and then taking the time to map out, well, where does the business want to be?

You know, we know where we are now.

We can see what’s not working and what is working, Where do we want to be?

23:16

And then it becomes how do you bridge the gap from from A to B or A to in this case, Z?

And actually there’s a lot involved, you know, and, and OK, training was, was a part of that.

Recruitment was a massive part of that.

Reviewing end to end process was processes was a massive part of that.

Leadership was huge part of that.

23:33

And actually, you know, Tesco kind of developed these essentially like this is not unusual.

I mean, most companies have values or, or things, but these essentially were six, five or six behaviours that they wanted to see in everybody in the organization.

So rather than company level values, they were more like behaviours and everything was created around these behaviours.

23:54

So for example, one was innovation or no one was empathy.

Firstly, trying to identify how that behaviour translates into 14 different countries, you know, is, is slightly challenging.

But then also how do you make those behaviours part of your DNA as an organization?

24:11

And it concerned me for Tesco because I thought, I’m not sure people in this company are ready for this.

But actually that ended up being a really good thing because, you know, things like, and again, this, you know, might sound quite small or it might sound, it’s not exactly revolutionary because this was 15 years ago though.

24:27

But to actually introduce for a, for a kind of FMCG retailer to start saying you’re not just measured on what you do, but you’re now getting measured on how and what you do.

That just completely through a lot of people, you know, particularly at that kind of store manager level.

And I believe they may have lost naturally about 20% of the leadership in the company at the supermarket level because it just wasn’t for them.

24:49

But actually that was a really good thing for the business.

Yes, there was obviously short term cost to that, but you know, you want the right people on board and you accept it’s going to be difficult.

You accept it might be a struggle, you accept there might be some development needs.

But look, some people just are not going to want to be part of it.

And so you don’t want to force people to do that.

25:05

And I think their approach to that was amazing and they were really open, really welcoming with it.

But just this massive focus on why these people?

Skills are so.

Needed and why we need to do better and be better with employees was fascinating.

They’ve always stuck in my mind, I guess I.

Love that example.

25:22

I should have interviewed you for my book.

Gosh, why did we not have this conversation a year ago?

No, but seriously, how amazing.

Because it’s so fascinating, because I’ve been having, I mean, God, I have been talking about the I written the book.

25:40

I had to do all the research for the book.

I mean, this has been an ongoing thing for a while, as you can imagine.

And obviously what always comes out of the presentations I give is, OK, that’s all great and everything, but what what are examples of some companies that have done it?

Or do you have any stories or what’s actually worked?

25:56

Or are there actually companies that are doing this?

And of course, I have ones written in my book, but here’s yet another one.

And it just goes to show that, yeah, massive companies are doing this because they recognize that this is the future.

Otherwise, people like you said, to have the right people to be able to create those cultures.

26:13

And if certain people leave, then better that they chose on their own to leave or got kind of pushed out because their behaviours were in line.

But you at the end of the day, you, the make up of the business is made-up by the people that you have running that business.

And you need to have the leaders who have access to those human competencies.

26:30

And it’s interesting actually because in this presentation I’m going to be giving, at the end of the day, you make up your business by having people stay who you need to have stay.

So the ones who get it and are willing to do it, you attract the right people.

But to be honest, only the right people are going to come and work for you if they like the culture that they’re coming to or they feel a part of being able to create that culture and you develop the skills.

26:49

And The thing is, is I believe that everybody has access to human competencies.

So it doesn’t matter how much money you have.

It doesn’t matter what country you come from.

It doesn’t matter where you fit into society.

It doesn’t even manage your education doesn’t even matter.

Everyone can be kind, everyone can be empathetic.

27:05

Everyone can tap into being vulnerable.

Everyone can create connection.

You just need to understand viscerally how.

And I think what’s interesting like with traditional training courses where people sort of sit in a classroom and you know, it’s, it’s hard to train for empathy, it’s hard to train for resilience.

27:21

It’s active listening, maybe cultural intelligence.

You can’t really do it and until you really kind of just understand those dynamics.

And anyway, that’s obviously what, what Tai does cause.

And that’s that’s why I believe that experiential learning has a big part in all of this because there are amazing people that we have within our companies.

27:40

It’s almost, we just need to be given permission to tap into these competencies.

And weirdly, throughout our education and through the culture, through family challenges, whatever we, we’ve almost been conditioned out of thinking that vulnerability is a strength.

We’ve been taught actually that vulnerability is a weakness and we just need to be given permission and understand the power of sort of tapping into these competencies.

28:03

Yeah, we’re onto a bit of a tangent, but it’s obviously something that I’ve been thinking a lot about.

But it is, it’s huge and I and I think when you sort of mentioned about, you know, happiness as well.

And, and I think that’s such an underrated measure in an organization.

Are your employees happy?

And yet, God, that’s like almost the key to everything.

28:21

You think if every organization was happy, surely we’re doing stuff right.

Granted, there are, you know, it’s hard to necessarily measure that consistently.

And I know there are some great tools out there now to, to kind of support, to help with that, but I’d honestly, I’d love to see more organisations putting a focus on this.

28:36

It felt like, you know, quite a while ago when Tesco did what they did.

Well, it was really, and actually that was down to the, the vision of I think one woman, Maxine Dolan, who ran the global Academy.

And interestingly, at the time, I, I suppose we never really saw eye to eye.

But it’s funny that the people you kind of look back on and reflect on and go, my God, you did amazing things.

28:54

Because, you know, after Tesco, I went on to work for Expedia Coke and everyone goes, oh, those must have been brilliant brands to work for.

And Soho House, you kind of go, yeah, my best experience at Tesco, because they were really innovative.

We had barely any budget.

You know, it wasn’t like when you go to one of these others where you’re given like a £4 million trading budget.

29:13

This was like, Oh no, there’s no budget, right?

Okay, so you have to work really hard.

And they are honestly one of the most innovative organisations I’ve ever worked for as well.

And, and again, it’s something you don’t often see externally, I think as a customer, but when you work for them and with them, you, you see it.

29:29

It’s, it’s pretty impressive.

But I do think that people focus the focus on wanting to create an empathetic environment was really ahead of its time 15 years ago, particularly in that kind of FMCG space.

Are you?

Just I didn’t hear about it.

It’s so interesting because, you know, I’m about to give these keynotes for this conference in front of a whole lot of CEOs, and there’s nine big businesses that are there.

29:50

And I’ve been told that seven of them don’t believe that happiness is important.

And it’s fascinating, right?

And in my presentation, it’s very clear.

I define happiness because happiness is a funny word, right?

Happiness can mean a whole lot of things.

So my definition of happiness is if people feel truly connected and engaged and have a shared purpose with the mission of the organization.

30:09

So they feel they’re valued, they feel that they have that shared purpose.

The company is very clear as to what the mission is.

And I feel a part of that.

And so with that, I feel energized.

I feel excited to come into work.

I have resilience and determination because I will make this work.

30:28

And you feel like you’re a valued part in this mission, right?

So if people are not happy, so therefore they’re not engaged, they don’t feel valued, they don’t feel listened to, they don’t really know why they’re even there.

What is the, what, why am I waking up every morning and, and working for 10 hours a day and give it, you know, what quality of life?

30:46

I don’t seem to be taken into consideration in the sort of in the makeup of all of this.

That’s why absenteeism is so high.

That’s why people are quitting.

That’s why people aren’t engaged.

People aren’t coming up with great ideas.

And there’s a cost to that.

In fact, the cost is 550 billion American dollars a year for companies that don’t have engaged employees.

31:05

That’s the cost.

So then you think isn’t that huge?

But then you think, if I have engaged employees, so engaged employees equals happy employees.

So everything that we’ve just said, companies are 21% more profitable, but that also makes sense because you’ve got employees who are coming up with ideas, they’re being innovative, They’re not quitting because that costs a whole lot of money.

31:24

They’re not being sick all the time.

So they’re actually at work doing stuff.

If you look at the bottom line, it is more profitable, but yet people, they haven’t made those connections.

That just doesn’t make sense to me, you know?

It really needs a big push from every angle, doesn’t it?

I mean, and I suppose, you know, a big one would be kind of how we value organizations, right?

31:42

So if they’re kind of boards that value organizations, if the industries that value them took some different metrics on board and not just bottom line, maybe we’d stand more of a chance of making a bigger change sooner.

But I think it’s going to take a lot of Yeah, well, it’s going to take a while, I suppose, but.

But This is why what you’re doing, I think is so important because again, it comes down to this PR problem that we have with this human resources, because talent people get it.

32:07

They need to hire the right people.

They need to also be part of companies that get this, that they feel a part of where they’re empowered enough.

At the end of the day, it’s the talent people hiring the right people that are creating those cultures, right?

And that’s where this change comes from.

32:22

It’s an exciting moment and it’s exciting to sort of be a part of this because all of this then equals to a a better, more sustainable world, which then built comes back to the happiness equation.

Because people have distrust in business.

There’s so much transparency now.

You can’t hide people like no, if you have a business that actually lives up to what it says that it’s all about, I believe in what I’m doing.

32:43

I create more of a shared purpose, you know, it all kind of feeds into one another.

Anyway, I could talk about this forever in your work, just sort of on the back of all of this, you know, how do you set up people for success?

I know sort of previously when I when I had teams of people in corporates and I still, I have to say I do, I do miss that.

33:00

I miss that element.

I actually miss, not many people say this, I think when they leave the corporate world, but I actually do miss corporates.

I actually really liked it.

And I suppose having working in them for so long does kind of feel weird to be, I guess, running a start up and I miss the global travel that’ll come, that’ll come.

I suppose.

33:16

You know, previously for me that setting people up for success, there was definitely something around focusing on was always something around focusing primarily on their well-being 1st.

And and that I, you know, I learned that from an amazing manager that I had.

I was very lucky to work for a woman, James Smith, and she was the first person I worked for who basically every single time we caught up, the first thing she wanted to know about was how I was, how was I feeling, how was I doing, what was going on the other side of work.

33:41

And I just thought, and I’ve been in corporates for quite a while and was really like, no, nobody cares about this, seriously.

And that relationship was incredible.

And you know, so I’ve always taken that with me.

I think that and helping people create their personal brand, you know, connecting them to the right people, helping them grow their network.

33:58

Because I, as someone’s manager, I’m never going to have the answers to everything.

And I’m the 1st to say that I’m not going to know stuff.

So actually setting them up to kind of be able to look after themselves with their own network and go to the right people when they need it, I think makes people really independent, which sets them up for success.

34:13

But you know, these days I’m in a very different role and we’ve got a tiny team.

And so I suppose, you know, the people I’m looking at setting up for success are our customers.

There are there are heads of learning.

And for me, I think they’re setting them up for success.

Bit again, it does come back to that networking piece.

It’s actually providing a community or helping them build the community so that they’ve got peer-to-peer support.

34:33

And because again, I don’t know everything and I don’t confess to, and This is why we work with so many partners and experts.

But you know, equally after the program, like like we said earlier, after the program’s finished, they’ve still got that peer-to-peer support and that network.

And I feel very positive that that sets everyone up for success actually just to have the right supportive network around them.

34:51

I totally agree with you.

I’m not sure if this is relevant or if this is possible, but I just, you know, as we’re listening and, and obviously you work in leadership and development and we’re talking about everything from community to human competencies.

But I just wonder if you have anything that you can leave with our listeners.

35:08

You know, is there a take away that you can leave people with a tool or something that in their day-to-day as a people manager or even just as a, you know, they might not even be heads of learning.

It could even just be I manage people, but do you have anything that you can leave people with that they can?

35:24

Go away using.

I’m going to sound like I still work for Tesco at this rate.

I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned them so much.

Since I left. 15 years ago, but it’s really making me reflect on Tesco, something that but Tesco did and again, this is part of their DNA.

So every meeting you went to this happened in and maybe looking back it wasn’t done perfectly.

35:43

And yes, I’d probably do things slightly differently now and frankly, when I first started with them, no, I did not like the concept of it and it took me a long time to get used to it.

But in every meeting you go to at Tesco, it starts with a check in it starts with a team check in rivers in that meeting let’s check in where are you right now?

36:01

How are you feeling today?

Where are you at?

Are you, are you coming into this meeting?

Are, are you, are you angry?

Is there something on your mind you want to get off your chest?

Are you feeling really positive?

Where are you this week?

And honestly, for the probably the first year I was there, I was like, are you kidding me?

I don’t have time for this.

And honestly, that was my mindset.

36:17

I was just like, we could, we could honestly make these meetings so much quicker.

And that genuinely was where my head was at.

And afterwards when I first, when I got into it and I actually, I had a really, really tough week.

And I remember just going into this meeting, it was the first time I properly opened up and was honest.

And I think I’d seen enough of them to know it was a safe kind of space and everyone did it.

36:36

And it was by that point I realised, oh, this really is how we do things here.

But then I felt I could just say it.

I remember just coming out and I think everyone was sort of sat in their open mouth.

OK, Oh my God, she never shares anything.

And that was it.

It just started from there.

And I was like, Oh my God, these are really good.

And it was just so useful because you felt listened to.

36:53

But it also really helped.

Everyone knows it wasn’t a long time you spent on it, so you didn’t go into too much detail, but it gave people an idea of where your head was at.

And so if they knew all of this stuff was going on for you, they’re going to be more, if you’re maybe a bit out of character in that meeting or maybe you’re not feeling that creative on that day or.

37:11

And actually for me, having some sort of check in like that is really powerful.

And yeah, I’d probably do things slightly differently, but I, you know, I really like that as a concept.

Such a good concept and of course you would do things differently because you introduced yourself as someone who’s always looking at how you can make things better.

37:26

So there’s always room for improvement.

That is a great a great starter and I’d.

Also, if if anyone hasn’t seen it, and you may well have watched it, great Ted Talk Just Thinking About Happiness by Sean Acre.

I don’t know if you’ve come across it.

It’s the happy secret to better work.

37:42

Yeah.

And it’s very amusing.

And you’ll feel a lot happier once you’ve seen it.

Good.

That’s such a great.

That’s not actually of people.

Do you have a Ted talk?

That’s actually such a great.

You need to ask that to everybody.

Give a Ted Talk to me and recommend.

That’s great.

Thank you for joining us and so much rich information for anybody that’s listening.

37:59

God, I love podcasts where people feel like they’ve got takeaways and they’ve got real examples of things.

So thank you for joining us.

That’s amazing.

No, thank you for having me take care.

Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.

I hope you enjoyed listening.

38:15

Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.

If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.

We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.

38:37

Or check out my book, Return on Humanity, Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.

You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the forefront of competition.

You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.

38:57

Get in touch and I can explain more.

A huge thanks to Ben Naviera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.

I hope we’ll meet up again soon.