0:03
Welcome to the show, where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.
Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.
0:21
Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the Global North or the Global South, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.
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What does it take to navigate the pivotal moments in leadership and emerge stronger, more impactful, and truly aligned with your values?
Hello and welcome to episode 102 of TIE Unearthed.
Today I’m thrilled to welcome Sally Henderson.
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Sally is a bold and highly sought after high stakes leadership mentor known for helping senior executives in C-Suite leaders thrive in moments of challenge, complexity and opportunity.
Sally’s journey is as inspiring as her work.
1:14
A proud northerner with a global perspective, her career began in recruitment where she ran a successful agency.
But when she realized her true passion lay in empowering leaders, she took a leap of faith into leadership mentoring and never looked back.
1:30
With over 20 years of experience, Sally developed The Real Method, a transformative framework that combines sharp strategic insight with deep emotional intelligence.
And through this bespoke approach, she helps leaders not only refine their roles but also redefine their potential.
1:49
In this episode, we dive into Sally’s fascinating personal story, her unique take on leadership, and her practical advice for navigating uncertainty and achieving peak performance.
Whether you’re leading A-Team, growing your organization, or striving to elevate your impact, Sally’s wisdom will leave you inspired and equipped to lead with clarity and purpose.
2:12
So throw on those running shoes or grab that favorite beverage and let’s get into it.
Sally, thank you so much for joining me here on TIE on Earth.
I think we’ve both been looking forward to this conversation for a while.
2:28
Very much Philippa, I’m so happy and honoured to be your guest.
Well.
Before we go into anything else, I always like to get an understanding of where people are when they’re talking to me because I feel very lucky.
I speak to people all over the place.
Where are you sitting today?
But I am in Tunbridge Wells in Kent, the UK.
2:46
I’m looking out my window.
The remnants of the latest storm has been sweeping the UK, but it’s a lovely view from the window nonetheless.
Oh.
Tunbridge Wells.
So my sister lives in Seven Oaks and so, yeah, so we went to Tunbridge Wells.
I think that’s actually where we went because last year there was skating in Tunbridge.
3:05
Oh, yeah.
That’s a great, it’s a, it’s a great place to be.
Oh, it’s just so gorgeous.
It is.
So Sally, before we get into everything, it would just be really great for us to hear a little bit about you and your story.
And yeah, just to bring you to life for.
3:22
Us.
Oh, thank you.
I think that’s such, such an interesting question because often we crack on with life and we stop.
We don’t stop to think what is our story and how have we got to where we are.
I always start by saying I’m a very proud Northerner and a Yorkshire lass because actually that has a bearing of who I am as an adult is being brought up in a family that believed in saying what is real, speaking the truth and no fluff.
3:45
And I think I’ve carried that throughout my whole life, being very straight, talking and direct and honest.
And I do attribute that to my family I grew up with.
And also coming from the north where you have to be, I think people sniff it if you’re not.
So growing up very happily in Ilkley in Yorkshire, seeing the Moors and I think basically I swapped Ilkley for Tunbridge Wells and via travelling and living around the world.
4:08
But I always joke if I see a dry Stonewall I get a nice feeling inside because it feels like home.
I just got a lovely association with them.
But I went off and I’m that classic person that didn’t know what they wanted to do when they grew up.
And so I did an international business degree in Newcastle, which was just such a lovely.
4:25
I think we don’t realize when we are that age how free the world is and how much luxury you have to just focus on one thing which is doing your degree.
But I had a great time doing that but I still didn’t know what I wanted to do.
So it led me to go off travelling solo in 1998 as I am now a parent myself to two wonderful fast growing boys.
4:45
I really applaud with the benefit of hindsight, my parents selfish selfishness in just letting me do that.
I had no idea Philip, but what was letting myself in for it was me, my rough guide and and a plan.
And I landed in India at 3:00 AM in the morning with a destination of where to go to fax my father when I arrived.
5:05
That was because no phone, no Internet, just going on my own.
But you know what it was what it remains one of the proudest things that I’ve ever done.
I will confess utter truth.
Had I had the power to you turn around the plane.
I was mid flight to Delhi.
5:22
Yes, I would when it dawned on me the enormity of what I was taking on.
How old were you?
I think I was 2423, yeah, around 23, just straight out of uni.
Never travelled before.
I’d been an au pair before going to uni.
5:37
But yeah, I think my father instilled in me a great sense of adventure and, and I think naivety of youth is also fabulous and just I don’t want to go and tread the path world trodden.
I don’t want to go and get a graduate degree.
I don’t want to go and move to London.
At that point, London was this scary place down South where everyone was all friendly.
5:54
I went to India.
Why not?
And yeah.
And then just travelled Asia on my own for seven months, got attacked by an orangutan.
That’s a story in itself.
And just found myself, not to sound a cliche, but I really did find Sally grew up.
And I think it’s actually sad these days that we are never truly away anymore.
6:13
I was away.
I called home once a month.
I used to send my photos home with the negative separately.
But I was really on my own.
And that actually was incredibly liberating as well as terrifying to have had that experience as a young woman just sort of setting in life.
6:28
And as a default of going travelling around the world.
And I ended up working in Sydney and Melbourne.
I fell into recruitment, which was when I was starting to think, right, I can’t travel forever.
They say that every traveller knows when their their journey is up and I think you do.
So for me, it was 18 months later.
So I wasn’t home for 18 months, came home in, in 99 and still didn’t know what I wanted to do.
6:49
So I moved to Ireland.
I thought, right, I’ve done the world.
I can’t go back to Yorkshire because I kind of have left there.
It’s my, it’ll always be my home, but I want to go out and experience the world.
But I wasn’t quite ready for that big move down South.
And I’ve made some traveller friends in Sydney who lived in Dublin and that was very much, you know, tiger energy economy.
7:09
I had a great time, but let’s just say you couldn’t get more contrasting than Sydney and Dublin.
And I love doubling, but I missed the glamour of Sydney.
I missed.
I also miss being a backpacker because then you’re starting to really think, well, who am I, What’s my career about?
7:24
How do I get a bit more serious?
But I had a lovely year in Ireland and then I did make the big, big move to London.
I was ready and I thought, you know what, I’m going to again.
Met a few friends from travelling were there and I thought it’s time now it’s time to go and see what that there London is all about.
7:41
And that started with my first career in recruitment because I’d fall into it backpacking.
But I was hilarious because I was like, this isn’t why I got my international business degree, goddamnit, to work in recruitment because I hadn’t chosen it.
But actually that career was the beginning of where I am now.
And my recruitment career for many years, it led me to something at my own recruitment agency, which I ran for seven years, called the Career Company.
8:04
And we really focused on doing what was right relentlessly.
So understanding people, careers, leadership, business needs and being that great partner and making it all come together in a way that worked, and I mean worked financially, worked emotionally and worked from a place of reaching potential.
8:23
And I did that happily for seven years.
But I always had this little nagging doubt that I never really set out to work in recruitment.
So when I had my first son, who’s now 15 1/2 and 6 foot three, would you believe I’m 5/8, I’m 5/8.
So even I’m like, wow, you’re 6 foot three.
8:40
That’s incredible.
I had Hugo and I just thought I had this little epiphany and I thought, I think it’s time for me to change tactics in recruitment.
I was seeing past recruitment and I’d be doing this amazing job, nurturing, coaching, mentoring, training, guiding, connecting and hand over the baby for want for better analogy and it would fall apart and people wouldn’t nurture it.
9:03
They wouldn’t care and they wouldn’t listen.
They would advise and I could see the same problems that are happening over and over again past the recruitment phase.
And I thought that’s where I belong.
That’s where I want to bring my full my full potential.
Where I believe I can have the biggest impact in the world is by moving from that lovely apprenticeship that recruitment gave me at the coalface of every shape, size of career.
9:25
I worked for the branding and innovation consultancy market and I looked after all the commercial roles that that was my kind of background.
I’ve talked to all walks of life, from graduates to global, all kinds of business and agency.
And there is a commonality between what people want and what they miss when it comes to transition and stakes that when they’re high.
9:46
And I just thought, right, that’s my world, the leadership development piece, that’s where I think I can have the biggest impact.
And that led me 15 years ago to start the path of creating what is now my global high stakes leadership mentoring practice and designing my leadership program called The Real Method.
10:02
So I’m helping people, especially when they’re very senior people, people and teams to master how they lead.
So just backing up just a little bit because I do want to just capture that moment.
I always find it so interesting with founders.
What was that catalyst?
10:18
Was it a moment specifically?
Was it suddenly did something happen?
Was there a moment or was it sort of just a slow burn?
It was a bit of both and I think it’s a great question because again, we, as I started on our call, we’re too often impatient to go forward without understanding why and what caused it.
10:36
Actually, there were two catalysts Philip, I’d like to share with you.
The first one actually goes a bit further back when I first made the move to London and I got my first recruitment job in an industry that I loved, which was the design and brand industry.
And I was doing brilliantly in an agency for over 4 years where I kind of went out and I owned the market, you know, very bullish in my 20s, you know, going for gold.
10:59
And I actually became incredibly stuck and bored and I became a sectionist at indecision, ironically, when it came to my own career.
So it was I helping all these other careers grow and flourish, everything, my team being a really strong performer for the business that employed me at the time.
11:19
And I was fundamentally just getting stuck.
And so I did.
The really interesting thing that I don’t actually recommend anyone does is I utterly gave my power away by getting myself fired.
That’s what I did to make change.
I actually at that time wasn’t brave enough to make change because there was a lot I liked about where I worked.
11:41
In fact, my future husband was also in that business as an employee.
And I knew also that just going to work for a competitor for X amount more on a salary basis wasn’t going to fulfil me.
And so I didn’t.
I genuinely didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I wasn’t brave enough to own that.
11:57
So I told everybody I was going to set up my own agency.
I had no intention of setting up my own agency.
And I knew in my subconscious and my conscious that I was sabotaging myself.
I knew it, you know, I was telling so many people, anyone who’d listened, how bored I was, but I couldn’t tell my bosses and I couldn’t have that discussion around.
12:17
I think I have reached the end, but I don’t know what to do next.
But here’s the really weird and ironic thing.
The day I’d made my decision that I was going to go and have the honest conversation and say, listen, I just think I need to change.
And I was actually going to ask to go part time to study coaching because that was always the bit I loved that day.
12:34
I was going to do that.
They fired me.
And I think it’s a great lesson to employee and employer here around don’t shy away from an honest conversation because if we’d had an honest conversation, we would never have got to that point of breaking.
And I fully owned my my side in that.
And then I was devastated, Philip, that was devastated by the shame of it and the there’s such a horrible way to leave a company being fired.
12:57
And also it’s because it could have been so different and it was a shame to what had been a really successful situation and back then as well, let’s not forget this as many years ago.
And it wasn’t cool to be fired.
It wasn’t cool to to do things differently or to just throw caution to the wind.
The world was a much more conservative place back then around careers and stability.
13:16
I think it’s much more tolerant and it’s much more changeable now.
But back then it wasn’t the case.
So that taught me a big lesson about I would never have gone on to found what Actually a year later I had a little stint management consultancy, but a year later I did found a career company.
But the interesting niggle about when I founded the career companies, I only did that because I couldn’t find out what else I wanted to do.
13:37
And so I here’s an interesting use of use of language.
I went back to what I used to do and I don’t believe in like you can go back, you know, you want to go forward.
And so I went back into recruitment because I just didn’t know what else to do.
And I did build a really successful niche integrity LED agency for seven years.
13:54
But here’s the niggle came back.
I think I never really wanted to be in recruitment.
I didn’t really choose this career path and deep down in my absolute soul, I just knew it wasn’t where I was meant to stay.
So with the life lesson of having given my power away before and having got fired, which was really unpleasant experience, actually really damaging at the time, I can laugh and joke about it now, but the time it was really horrendous, really traumatic.
14:18
Yeah, it really was ego, self, everything awful.
And I will say, you know, bless the employer I work with didn’t handle it well either.
I think neither has handled it very well.
So anyway, I wanted to lead this company and I took the company as far as I wanted to.
I dominated a certain market.
I didn’t really want to grow an agency.
14:34
I also didn’t want to compromise the quality of the business.
And the more people you get, the things change.
And I thought this business, although technically very successful, I had a very nice career, very nice earnings, and my husband came in to work in the business as well.
I thought, I don’t love this business anymore.
14:52
And the ironic thing was that in a way, I was becoming a bit of a fraud.
Because the whole mantra of the career company, and it’s still a personal belief of mine to date, is that you have the right to be happy and effective at work.
It’s not luck.
You know, you have a right you need.
That’s what you want to go and find.
15:07
And that’s what you can find with the right mindset, the right support, sometimes a little bit of luck, but absolutely right to determine the nation.
And I thought, here am I running this agency, building everyone else’s careers, you know, giving people incredible life opportunities, not enjoying it.
You know, I’d wake up at 3:00 AM worrying about people.
15:25
And I think I’m a really good mentor.
I don’t think I’m a very good manager.
You know, they’re very different things.
And I thought, I think I’ve taken this business in seven years as far as I actually want to take it.
So when I was with and Hugo came along sooner than we were expecting, you know, we were lucky in that respect, my husband and I, but we’re like wacky, didn’t expect it to literally happen.
15:45
And again, the naivety of youth when you’re going, that wasn’t in the plan.
We’re six months ahead of plan and I just was with Hugo at home going.
I just know this has reached a natural end and I’m doing no or any favours if I keep running a business that I’m not fully invested in and my heart doesn’t belong in it anymore.
16:02
So it was the hardest decision, but again, I had that memory of giving my power away and letting other things dictate my life.
I’ve got a choice now.
I either own up to how I really feel and the expression I use is the naked truth will always conquer.
16:19
And the naked truth was I never really wanted to set up a recruitment company.
I only did it because I couldn’t find anything else to do at the time that was better or more suited.
And there’s another little phrase that I’ve taken from that time, which has stayed with me ever since and served me well, which is I would rather take bold action than stay in stale safety any day.
16:40
And stale safety would have been staying in a very successful outside in prospective niche business, earning a beautiful multi 6 figure salary and just going round around in circles like Groundhog Day.
That would have been stale safety.
And ultimately, therefore it wouldn’t have worked.
At some point the wheels would have come off, so I remembered that.
16:57
And so with a heavy heart because I loved this business, I’ve put everything into it for seven years and technically I said we were very successful with money in the bank.
We’d survived 2 recessions, phone never stopped ringing, inbound calls all the time.
Loyal talent, the best talent, the best clients.
17:13
I called IT and we took care of our staff as best as we could.
You know, we got an HR person to come and consult with us.
We made sure everyone’s looked after.
And then, and by the way, I’ve got my first baby who wasn’t a sleeper, who’d been a very difficult bird.
And you know, I’d go with my NCT friends and they’d all be chatting over coffee and I’m thinking about redundancies.
17:32
And I remember I went to make the first redundancies and mum came down to look after Hugo, which he was seven months old.
And she was like, he won’t take his bottle.
And I’m like, he just has to, we’re about to go and start redundancy consultations.
He just has to, I can’t.
Oh, I don’t know how I didn’t fall over Philippo.
17:47
It’s one of the hardest times of my life.
And then I didn’t actually go on maternity emotionally or mentally.
Took a lot longer to wrap up the company than I thought.
Hugo was 10 months old by the time I actually I think had managed to close most of the company down.
It was really hard.
18:03
And the hardest thing again on top of that is that my husband and I didn’t have a plan.
He also was redundant.
I was redundant.
We had our son and we didn’t have the luxury of going well, we’ll just go, you know, we didn’t sell the company for loads of money.
We didn’t do a big earn out.
18:18
We had some reserves, but it was a decision based on what was right and true and authentic and putting ourselves out into the unknown.
I used to always get told a statement when I was building my recruitment business going jump and a net will appear, you know, and that’s been a bit of a motto of my of my life actually.
18:37
When I first launched the recruitment company in the 1st place, I gave my very lucrative management consultative job to my best friend.
I got her recruited instead of me because I knew I had to commit 2 feet into building the business if I wanted it to be a success.
It was going to be rather than a safety net of a bit of part time work and have a go.
18:54
But yeah, that catalyst of just being, it’s going to sound so such a cliche, but being true to who I am and what I wanted, even though I didn’t know what that was at the time.
And again, a bit like that plane to Delhi.
It’s been some days where if you could say to me, would you do it again?
Some days I might have gone, not so sure I’d do it so entirely.
19:14
But you know what now Hugo’s.
I said 6 foot 3 and 15.
Turning 16 next year and I don’t regret it for a second.
What was?
What’s the biggest shock then when you started your business?
Oh my God, yeah, there were many things, but do you know what I think the biggest shock was?
19:31
I’d say the current business is 9 years old, but this journey started so 14 years ago.
I think the biggest shock I had leaving my lovely bubble of being the go to, you know, headhunter and recruiter in the design and brand industry world for London.
I’ve really naively thought, Philippa, I could just piggyback from that reputation into the coaching and mentoring world because everyone told me that’s what I did anyway.
19:58
And everyone told me you’re not like all the other recruiters, seller, you’re so different.
And so I really naively thought, well, I’ll just piggyback and I’ll start at this sort of higher level in this new career path because I’ve been doing it for years anyway, just through the lens of recruitment.
So the biggest shock in truth when I made that change was my ego, because my ego for one second hadn’t appreciated just.
20:21
How little I would be known in the new world and that I literally had to let go of everything about my professional identity, pretty much everything from my previous career, which I’ve been building for what, 12 years, something like that.
Let it all go, all of it, and start from scratch.
20:37
Literally list building, you know, having to hit a certain amount of numbers of outbound every day.
Not in a bad way, but because if you didn’t have a certain amount of volume, you’re just not going to get the incoming.
Not even knowing what my title was, not even knowing what my offer was.
I was not knowing who I really wanted to serve, not knowing which industry I did want to specialize in.
20:57
And all this time, I have been and still am the major breadwinner for our family.
So we equally didn’t have the luxury, for sure.
Yeah.
And then we have another baby, Oliver, who is now 12.
He came along literally just not knowing what I wanted but not going.
21:14
I can just take a year, figure it out or, you know, oh, we’ll get a bonus coming in at that point, so I’ll buy us a bit more time.
No hard like nursery fees.
We also don’t have family where where we live.
And we still lived in London.
And then we moved, made the move to Kent 12 years ago.
21:29
And that was also a real challenge was like, we don’t have a location.
We don’t have anything fixed.
We need to move house because our beautiful little home in Walthamstow, you literally couldn’t swing the proverbial cats.
And we don’t know where to live in the world because we don’t know what’s coming next.
And what if one of us gets a job or a location?
21:45
Then we’ve put ourselves on the wrong side of the commute.
It was so stressful, it really was, but I had that belief that it was going to be worth it.
Where are you now?
So I think it would be really helpful for us to understand what is it that you are.
22:00
Doing now, yes.
So now I am delighted, proud and thrilled to share that I am a high stakes leadership mentor.
I have a nine year established business that works globally with the best brands and creative agencies out there in the world, where I work with the executive teams and C-Suite leaders as their high stakes leadership mentor, which means there’s something of significance happening.
22:27
There’s change of thought, there’s transition, there’s Jeopardy in the air and there’s time pressure to deliver because they were the things I loved about recruitment.
You’ve got to deliver.
There’s no did I?
It’s like either you did or you didn’t.
So I work with executive teams and C-Suite leaders, particularly in time to change complexity, uncertainty transition.
22:45
And I equip them with my tool kit that I’ve designed based on all those years of the coalface through recruitment and my own personal learning with the real method, which is the fundamental foundations that you need to be that high performer.
And let’s even go higher to peak performance through mastering how you lead.
23:02
Because I think that’s the missing link out there in the world today, how you lead.
So bring that to life a little bit more.
So what does that mean?
We’ve all been taught around the importance of knowing your Why haven’t we and your North Star and your motivation and your purpose.
And I still, and I believe that’s really valid, but I think it’s almost kind of tipped too far in the balance of it’s all very well knowing what your why is, but you don’t know how to make it real.
23:25
It can actually be very debilitating and frustrating and unfulfilling.
So I come in and I deal with all the assumptions that I find happen.
You know what I’d actually be brave enough to say 100% of the time that these fundamentals are missing for high performance in the world of work through the lens of understanding yourself as a leader.
23:47
And yes, I specialize at the senior end, but this is a universally applicable methodology.
So I’ll and it very handily spells real Philip, which I can’t take the joy that gave me when that did actually work.
I’d love to say by design it wasn’t it just it all came together a bit meant to be, but the R of the real method and I don’t deliver with this.
24:05
The joy of the real method is it’s a structured program, but it’s always delivered entirely tailored and personalized to the team or the person I’m working with because we are not robots, you know, this is not a static training, it’s a development program.
But for simplicity and to go with the acronym, the R stands for role.
24:23
So would you believe for the put when I ask especially CEO’s this question, 9 out of 10 of them, this isn’t quite 100%, but 9 out of 10 of them can’t answer this question, which is what’s your job?
You ask that simple question, what’s your job to people in very big jobs especially, and they look at you with shock and horror because, well, I’m the CEO of this incredible brand or this well known creative agency like Famous Business.
24:49
What on earth are you doing asking me what my job is?
And nobody does ask people these fundamental questions.
It all gets assumed that you know the answers.
But 9 out of 10 people out there in Senior High stakes roles do not have any clarity about what their job is and equally what it isn’t because they’re high performers and they’re talented.
25:07
Of course they’re delivering results.
And it’s not saying put a straitjacket around it and try and be very kind of overly HR orientated.
But it’s fascinating, isn’t it, that you can go into a CEO role or any meaningful role because lower down in the more junior roles, there’s more, there’s more control.
25:23
Ironically, there’s more clarity about this is your job.
Here’s a job spec, here’s how it’s measured, here’s career path.
But once you’ve hit that high performance sort of senior business leadership level, a lot of that just falls away through assumption because people assume you’ve got the career path and the knowledge to just get it and nobody normally has taken a moment to go.
25:40
Are you really clear on what your job is?
And also, it’s really interesting and difficult when you’re in that job to turn around and go, and I just clarify what my job is, please, because you’re meant to know, aren’t you?
So the, the R of the real method is all about what’s your role?
And I have a tool called the five Rs, which really gives an agile, but very simple smart framework to just map out.
26:01
This is my role to drive successful change, which also helps me know what it isn’t.
And then guess what, we can share that.
And this works also for a whole company system or even, and also for teams.
I do this equally with teams and leaders.
It’s the same model, it’s just applied differently.
Same toolkit.
26:17
You ask a leadership team to all say, say on the same day, in the same moment, what’s the role of this leadership team right now, the next 12 months?
They can’t answer that question.
Not not within an aligned, really motivating, well structured human language.
They can’t.
And again, everyone’s working there for with assumption, but we’re all a little bit 1° off from each other.
26:35
So that’s causing conflict, wear and tear, leakages, lack of efficiencies and certainly lack of bloody bonding, you know, in terms of that human effort all coming together.
So art is all about what’s your job underpinned by the five arts role.
It’s underpinned by the emotion looks at how you’re feeling about your world of work.
26:53
There’s a tool I use called the five word reveal with individuals and I use a different tool called uncomfortable truths.
Breaking bread with teams because we’re going right what’s going on under the surface because if you don’t know how you feel, you are unconscious of how that’s influencing how you’re receiving information and therefore acting and believing because we’re all subjective beings and we’re driven back.
27:14
We are emotive beings as well.
Back in the day that was die or live whether your emotions would instantly we’re reading a situation properly.
But we actually don’t really have much training these days getting better, but the systems and tools and techniques to understand our feelings quickly and practically when it matters when, when it’s all happening at work.
27:33
So the E is around, how do you feel and how’s that impacting you?
Is it positive?
Is it negative?
Is it a mismatch of both?
The A is acceleration.
Where does your motivation come from?
Because that is different to your feelings.
That is the fuel that has to go in the tank relentlessly to keep you energized.
27:51
Top form, quick thinking, quick acting, quick, quick reflexes and also anticipating what’s coming around the corner, which in today’s world of work, you’ve got to be anticipating.
There’s so much change.
Change is the only constant.
It’s again cliche, but true.
So if you don’t know what drives you, how on earth you’re going to keep yourself motivated.
28:08
And then the last one is around the good old classic Ron Seal.
It does what says on the tin leadership leaders don’t actually know what makes them unique and successful as a leadership style.
What I find very interestingly, when you start to go under the hood about what do you think about your own leadership?
28:24
Often what’s happening is people are trying to either be like a leader they admire or being not like a leader they worked with earlier in their career.
Yeah, left a bit of a shadow on them.
So therefore they’re they’re very conflicted because they’re trying to be like someone and not like someone else, but they’re not being themselves.
28:40
So leadership vision boarding, which is the tool here, helps you to make your leadership style that’s unique to you and rightly so tangible.
And then by future forecasting, playing with the fact that the brain doesn’t know past, present, future, factual, fantasy.
And just pause on that for a second because this is classic neurolinguistic programming language.
28:59
But when I first learned, the brain doesn’t know the difference between past, present and future or fact and fantasy.
So the brain, if you’re worrying, especially as a leader, you’re worrying about something that’s happened in the past that you’re not quite sure how it’s going to play out.
29:16
The emotional, physical reading of that is as real as if it’s happening now.
Yeah, because you evoke the feeling, the sensation.
Or equally, if you’re worrying or anticipating what’s coming in the future, which also can be excitement because that’s just a message interpretation, Fear and excitement, your body, your Physiology and your emotional state will go to that place in the future as if it’s real time.
29:36
Is not, is it?
It is a human thing.
Like different religions, races, cultures have different calendars, don’t they?
That’s all going on with in our brains, so we can use that to our advantage.
And equally, if your brain, your subconscious is telling you the fantasy that you’re not good at managing people, as an example, you’re going to believe that even if all the evidence points to you being great at managing people, if your brain has decided you’re not, all you will look for is all the clues and triggers as to why you’re not.
30:02
Because that’s the fantasy you weirdly want to be reinforced about because that means at least you were right.
Even if you’re great, it’s.
The power of mindset, isn’t it?
It’s.
Fundamental and we all go through life not really being taught this stuff.
We just have to navigate our own way.
30:18
And you know, when I remember I said go back to that point of, you know, making decision to stop my company or when I got fired.
You know, if you think about someone who maybe has aggrieved you and you haven’t properly processed or let go, you get that inner flare, don’t you?
And your body, because as far as your brain is concerned, it’s real again, it’s a threat even though it’s not.
30:37
But the good news is we can use this to our whole advantage when it comes to accelerating our future leadership growth.
Because if you create a visual for your leadership now, you can Yang lots of images, words that on one page sum up you as the leader today.
But then you say, right, I’m about to lead my team, my business, my life through this high stakes situation.
30:57
And I would say in 12 months time or 6, if it’s a fast changing situation, we will have delivered these outcomes.
And therefore as a leader, I will have grown in these ways by future forecasting that Philippa, and making it real as a vision board because your brain can see it and you’ve processed it well.
31:14
As far as your brain is concerned, you can be it.
Now.
You don’t have to wait those six months to have the experience to learn it.
It’s the classic dress for the job you want, but you can do that with your leadership understanding of yourself and you can equally do this with the team, which is again, so powerful.
31:31
So if you get a team to create a visual representation of the leadership style of the team today, and they all have a role in creating that.
And I’ve got a technique that I’ve gamified to do this and the Ying and the Yang.
So you are honest as well.
You know, the emotion piece coming in a little bit here about all what’s maybe not so great about how we’re showing up as a collective leadership team and then you collectively create your future one, but you’ve all had a shape in designing and then you go, right, well, that’s how we want to show up as a leadership team.
31:57
Change is incredible and it happens like that.
You know, it can happen like that and then each of you do your individual one.
Wow, that’s transformational.
I wanted to understand perhaps through a story of someone that you have worked with.
I’m just wanting to put this into context for our listeners to see how this works in practice.
32:18
I mean, I understand the real method.
I understand sort of in theory.
Perhaps you can help us understand common errors that you see people making or stories are always so powerful.
So someone that you’ve worked with where you were able to set them up for success, what have you done?
What have you seen?
32:35
So I was thinking about this because obviously there’s many, but I’ll work with, we’ll call this person Sarah.
So Sarah had worked with an agency for about 10 years and she had grown that team, that business to an incredibly exciting place of growth.
32:50
And when she first started working with them, she was just a general manager.
I think just about that in her scheme of it, that was her most junior role in leadership in the business.
She then grown the business so successfully, quickly had a family at the same time dramatically to become MD of that business and took it to say 60 people and in for agency.
33:09
This is quite significant.
Obviously, if you’re in a global business, it sounds quite small, but for agency growth, it’s not in the context what they were doing.
And then they had a real ambition to become CEO.
They worked for a big network, so it wasn’t their business.
And the agency had grown to about 90 people.
And they were on the tipping point of then wanting to become officially the CEO of that business.
33:27
But here’s where they were going wrong.
They had some self beliefs around leadership traits and values that had served them incredibly well to get to say the 50 mark and to becoming kind of a really established MD.
Such as being very available, being very accessible, being down with the troops, getting your hands dirt and really being like in and amongst it to show that you care and you’re a leader that understands etc.
33:50
However, the tipping point of this these leadership beliefs was such that Sarah was never getting home on time, she was taking on everyone else’s work and she had no control over her own diary.
She couldn’t have any space to think strategically.
She was so stuck in the doing whilst at the same time driving incredible growth and she was suffering as a result.
34:07
She was a global client.
So when I first started working with her, hadn’t met her in person, but you could see her color was drained, her face was taut, and I knew her leg was just tapping under the desk like she was so taught.
You were like, crikey, you need a massage.
You were just like a ball of stress.
I’m.
Curious, just really quickly just hold that thought, who hired you?
34:25
Was it the company or was it her?
Her.
She recognized that she was needing help.
She did, she’s a very self enlightened person and also very ambitious and also knew to get to her potential it would take outside expertise.
It wasn’t just going to happen organically.
Yeah, great believer in meant the value of mentoring and having help when it matters the most.
34:44
I helped through mentoring and taking her through the real method to highlight to her that all this belief you had, which was brilliant is just a little bit misplaced now because forgive the language that people were taking the piss.
They were going oh, Sarah, well, could you possibly help me?
And she’d be like, yeah, sure.
35:00
And then they would bugger off and she’s left in the office going out on a minute.
This isn’t right.
And so she actually wasn’t doing her job well.
So we did some reframing.
We did LVBS around, right.
What is your current leadership?
Where were you?
We went back to being AGM.
Where are you as just coming out of MD and what do you need to be to smash it out the park as CEO?
35:17
What’s an LBD?
Leadership vision board.
Sorry, thank you.
Under the L of the real method, leadership vision boarding, taking that idea around leadership and making it real.
We also used the five Rs from roll to map out what’s your job and what’s what isn’t it?
35:33
And one of those is rhythm.
So the five Rs is roll, remit, rhythm, results, reward and rhythm is your how, how are you delivering your job?
And we identified that this being available at any time for all people was just overwhelming and wasn’t practical.
Now that they were nearly 100 people strong, just wasn’t feasible.
35:52
So we put a rhythm in that if somebody wanted to meet with Sarah outside of work, as usual, they could book in a space in her diary.
That was sacrosanct.
Now, here’s what’s very fascinating that happened.
A Sarah felt like she was still upholding her value of being available to people because she still believed in that greatly, but it wasn’t on everyone else’s terms.
36:08
And here’s what’s interesting from the people point of view.
They knew that Sarah was still available to her, to them, but they had to have a reason to book in her.
It wasn’t just such a, oh, can I just borrow you?
Oh, could I?
Could you?
It just brought a little bit more rigor to the arts.
And of course, if it didn’t fit in that, that was still OK.
36:24
You know, it’s so crazy just listening to this and sorry to sorry.
To.
Because it’s so interesting how sometimes it takes permission.
You have these conversations.
Well, one, it’s one, the manifesting thing I think is so, so powerful.
But I also think this thing around role behaviours, you get into routines.
36:42
I mean, you start in one role and you’re still in the same company and that’s going to change.
I mean, as it grows, as your role changes, the definition of that.
And then I mean, it’s the same thing in families.
It’s kind of if you’re the youngest and you’re the eldest, you sort of have that role.
36:57
And then you, for the rest of your life within that family, you sort of are forced to take on certain roles.
But sometimes it requires a bit of reflection as to how people in your family are treating you just based on how it’s always been.
But sometimes it takes an external voice to give you that admission to say, yes, but you did that before and you could, but now you can’t.
37:18
It doesn’t make sense anymore.
And it’s, Oh my God, that’s so right.
But you need that viewpoint.
And I think it’s so interesting as well.
Just the manifestation, you know, the vision boards and understanding where you want to be and understanding how you can get there.
When I started TIE back in 2005, my manifestation was X.
37:39
And where I needed to be manifesting two years ago, for example, of course, that needed to be different, but I hadn’t actually done that.
I did it back in 2005, but I hadn’t done it again.
And actually I was speaking to a mentor of mine, and when he asked such an obvious question, I was like, Oh my goodness, I hadn’t relooked at that.
38:01
And again, it’s that external viewpoint and then the sort of rigor behind it and the questions that force you to sort of blow open your mind that just provides the structure to know where you take things.
And it just makes so much sense.
And I don’t believe that you can run at that level in a business without this external help.
38:18
I think it’s impossible because you need that external perspective.
Yeah, 100% because we’ve all got, you know, our own limitations, our self beliefs, our biases, our imprinting.
And also we’re all doing busy jobs domestically and professionally and we, we are fine.
38:33
I say to my clients, I hate to tell you, but you’re a finite being and you only do have 100%, not even 101.
So if you’re setting your life up both professionally and personally to run it like 130% relentlessly, it’s not rewarding.
Yeah, something will break.
Yeah, something will break.
So why don’t we get it, get you there smarter, more effectively, put more joy back in your world, more control, yet keep you fluid and agile.
38:57
And I think the lovely blend of structure with emotion and keeping things totally bespoke, that’s where the magic source really can come alive.
But I do think for this world today, the leadership way that we’re having to be relentlessly resilient and agile.
39:15
And you know, we haven’t used the word pivot for a few years, but I’m sure it’s going to come back post COVID.
But I think if we can master how we are leading at work and use these fundamental principles just to make our lives easier and more effective, there’s got to be value in that.
39:30
You are writing a book.
Perhaps you want to say a little bit about your book.
Oh well, I’ll first start by saying you’re my girl crush philipper for writing my book.
You are my inspiration and if I can do half a good job if you have with your beautiful book, then I’ll be a proud lady.
Oh, that’s.
39:46
So nasty.
Thank you.
True, that’s how we first met.
You might.
Know I.
Rang you up I just was so I’m a stranger and an entrepreneur to another.
I was just so proud of everything you’ve achieved and what you’re doing the beat that you’re taking out to the world and it you were like my the last little bit of inspiration I needed to go right Sally, come on, you’ve been talking for 13 years to write a book.
40:07
I didn’t write it before because I knew I wasn’t ready.
Actually, now is the right time because I’m practiced enough in getting to where I think I’ve genuinely got something of help to.
Off of the world, which is around the how of high performance, you know, bringing this idea of you can master how you lead and taking the principles and beliefs that are proven to work at executive and C-Suite level.
40:25
And saying through the lens of that, this can also be a universal guiding principle that if you get it earlier in your career, wow, think of the difference.
So it’s bringing the real method, the tools, the stories, the evidence, if you like, as to why this does matter in the world and creating it in a way that’s highly, I hope, entertaining and uplifting that we all need that in our lives more right now.
40:46
The world’s a heavy place, but really bloody practical, you know, like a really nice how to manual of right, If you want to set yourself up to be not just high performance, but peak performance and sustain that in a world that is more than demanding.
If you do these guiding principles well and get them in your muscle memory, you will have a better life.
41:05
You will have, I would say, a more successful career.
And ultimately, you’ll go back to my guiding principles of why, you know, when I was a recruiter, recruiter, you will know how to be and effective and not only in work, but you can take that and have it in your life as well.
And that I think we need more leaders who have that in abundance.
41:22
Can you share just a take away from your book, Just an easy take away that people could potentially use or reflect on?
I’d love to thank you for the invitation.
I’m going to share with you just in top line form, the role where the real method starts as I’ve been describing it today.
41:39
But you can start the real method anywhere because it’s where you’re at as a human and a leader in a business.
But the five Rs, for anyone listening, this is going to really help you understand how to set yourself up for success in your job.
And if you’re recruiting, if you’re retaining, it will work across that just as well.
So the five Rs, if you grab a pen, they are roll remit, rhythm, results, reward.
42:00
I’m going to take you through this one by one very quickly.
Your role is your why.
Why do you show up to work as a job, though, as a it has to be something that’s human, not business.
Speak natural that you could say in the pub, in the park or in the boardroom and it will work.
42:16
But what’s most important is when you say your role and you’ve got this lovely one liner, it wants to light you up when you speak it.
Because most of the time I ask people about their role, they fall flat when describing it.
It’s very fascinating and they actually sound a bit bored, which is not cool.
So when you talk about your role A, it should lift your energy and also inspire and motivate the person you’re saying it to universally.
42:39
But most people are walking around completely blind about that.
They have no idea how to articulate their job.
So your role is your why.
Not your big why from a life point of view, but why is your job valuable and what benefit does it deliver?
Your remit is your what?
It’s normally 5 bullets.
They have to add up to 100%.
42:56
There’s your challenge.
So if you say over a year, the five core buckets of responsibility or duties that I want to get my hands on or I’m expected to get my hands on are these five things.
So it might be for ACEO vision, culture, commercials, operations and clients.
43:11
I’m just plucking some or customers, you know, just plucking some very universal big buckets out.
But here’s the thing, if I percentage weight that CEO job to 60% Vision, you’ve instantly got a flavour of what that CEO is there to do.
If I wait that CEO job to 40% operations and only 20% vision, instantly it’s become a bit more techie as a CEO, a little bit more hybrid over to the CEO role.
43:35
So by just having five buckets and percentage weighting them over the course of a year, say where your attention and resources should be deployed, gives you a sense of managing your 100% because all you have to offer.
But what you do say in your first quarter is you might say, well, if I want to have an aggregate of that many, that percentage over the year, I’ve got to do 60% on it in Q1.
43:54
Otherwise I won’t get it down to 20%.
But it’s incredibly liberating when people do it because often it adds up to 130, like I said, and that’s just not sustainable.
And then you extrapolate that as much as you need for it to have have real rigor and make sense.
You then go through to rhythm.
Now, rhythm was a bit like the second cousin of this model before COVID, which is your how.
44:12
So we’ve got role.
Why remit?
What rhythm?
How, how are you setting yourself up for success in your job in terms of meetings, schedules, flights, travel, commuting?
And we still don’t have the answers now post COVID in the world of work that are we five days in the office, one day in the office?
44:30
Which day is that?
What’s your company rhythm like an annual basis?
What’s your team rhythm?
And then what’s your individual rhythm?
Because we don’t have clarity on that and people are still figuring it out.
But by going through this process, people suddenly have a lot more control around sharing.
Look, this is my rhythm.
44:45
Not saying that you can have it necessarily because it’s what’s right for the company as well, but we talked about Sarah, didn’t we?
She got her rhythm back in check, which meant she could get to the gym, she could be there for the kids because she then restricted her accessibility and made her rhythm much more effective to lead at the level she was leading at.
45:01
Results is your success metrics.
It’s your quantifiable deliverables.
So what does success look like in your job?
So in the first X months or year, what are you meant to deliver?
Both hard and soft?
What are you measuring?
What matters?
And are you all aligned on that?
And then beautifully, your results and your remit act as a counterbalance because if you’ve got a massive result in a bucket you’ve put 2% towards, then you’re setting up for a failure.
45:25
So it’s a sense check.
And if someone else comes along to you and says, oh, can you now do this?
Yes, I can, but where can I take it from?
And the last one is reward.
Reward is why are you bothering?
How do you want to gain from this experience?
So that your career product, as I call it, is also benefiting from delivering all your talent and expertise and results to either your own business or your employer.
45:45
So you’ve got role, remit, rhythm, result, reward.
Now it says one quick take away.
Just have a go listeners at writing down a statement for your job.
How easy do you find it?
Does it really motivate you?
Is it in language that is truly authentic to you?
And have a go at saying it to the mirror and see how you feel.
46:02
Do you have a quote that you can share that sort of sums up what we’ve talked about today or it’s a favorite quote perhaps?
Think I’ll go back to one I’ve already used, which is I’d rather take bold action than stay in stale safety any day.
Is there anything that I haven’t ask you that you’d like to tell our listeners?
46:18
I’d like to say back yourself.
I think if there’s a message I could take to my younger self and all the doubt, worries, insecurity, literal tears, frustration, if I’d only learn how to trust myself and back myself, not arrogance.
I don’t mean arrogance.
46:34
I mean truly back yourself for what you believe you’re capable of and go forward knowing that what you believe matters in the world and therefore you’ll find a way to deliver it.
But if you don’t back yourself first, it’s very hard for other people to fully back you, too.
Yeah.
Thank you.
46:49
Oh, thank you.
I love that.
Thank you for joining us.
It’s been so interesting because obviously listening to everything that you’re saying, I can’t help but take on board a lot of what you’re talking about.
So it’s very, very, very useful and helpful advice and I’m just thrilled that we can get it out there.
47:09
So thank you for joining me.
Oh, genuinely privileged pleasure.
And you’ll always be my girl crush book writer.
Oh.
An honour until next time.
Take care.
Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.
47:25
I hope you enjoyed listening.
Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.
If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.
We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.
47:48
Or check out my book, Return on Humanity Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.
You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the forefront of competition.
You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.
48:08
Get in touch and I can explain more.
A huge thanks to Beja Naviera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.
I hope we’ll meet up again soon.
