0:03

Welcome to the show where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.

Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.

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Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the global North or the global S, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.

My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.

0:40

I think we all agree that the mining industry has a bad rap.

Let’s face it, we all cringe slightly when the word sustainability and mining are put together in the same sentence.

But we also know that we need the minerals that the mines get to create many of the things we use, such as electric car batteries for example, and well, so much more.

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However, we need the right people running the companies and the sector, and they need to not only want to work in it, but also understand how to change things.

Not surprisingly, this comes down to human assets.

1:23

Hello and welcome to episode 91 of TIE Unearthed.

Today I’m thrilled to be joined by Doctor Hayden Mort, a British Earth scientist with over 15 years of research and lecturing experience, and is the founder of Geologize Limited.

With a PhD from Switzerland and a postdoc from the Netherlands, he leads efforts to foster public appreciation and understanding of the planet through his critically acclaimed training program that reaches over 200,000 scientists worldwide.

1:53

Doctor Mort’s work emphasizes the importance of humanity and empathy in business, underscoring the need for effective communication and fostering understanding and responsible behavior.

As a recognized diversity champion and advocate for inclusivity, he brings a unique perspective on the intersection of science, equity, and empathy, making him a compelling voice in today’s business landscape.

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Today, we’ll explore his fascinating journey into geology, sparked by a teenage encounter with the Grand Canyon, and his unique transition into neuroscience, driven by personal experiences.

2:39

We’ll touch on the challenges the mining industry faces, the importance of effective communication, empathy, and the benefits of diversity and neuro diversity in the workplace.

Together, we’ll discuss sustainable practices, bridging the gap between environmental activists and the mining industry, and the powerful connection between humanities and sciences.

3:03

So much here.

So throw on those running shoes or find that favorite beverage, and here is Hayden.

Hey, Hayden, thank you so much for joining me on TIE on Earth.

It’s so wonderful to have you here with me.

3:21

Good to see you, Philippa.

I mean, we are fellow parents at the children’s school and we have seen each other around for a few years, I guess.

But I don’t know how you haven’t been on TIE Unearthed yet because there’s so many overlaps with what we’re both doing.

3:37

So thrilled we.

Finally made Life is busy, life is busy and we’re doing busy important things, we hope, and this is the first time we’ve managed to overlap, so I’m really happy to have this opportunity with you I.

Obviously have a idea now of what you’re doing and just how important it is, but also how super interesting it is.

3:57

But I think it would just be really great for our listeners.

Perhaps you can tell us a little bit about you, why you’re in Brazil, a little bit about your story, perhaps before Geologize just to bring you to life for us.

Yes.

So why am I in Brazil?

Well, the answer is, like many cases, love.

4:16

Love brought me here.

I met my wife while I was doing field work back in 2005 and I met her at a British themed pub in the in Brazil.

Because that’s what Brits do, right?

When they travel, they go to somewhere that they feel at home.

And so it was the downtown pub in the recipe Antigua at the time and it was, she was celebrating her birthday.

4:36

We met, we hit it off and then we started a long term relationship.

She moved to Europe and then eventually I guess she didn’t like the drizzle very much and we ended up living somewhere which is considerably better weather right here here in northeast Brazil.

Yeah, amazing.

And so why were you at the Downtown pub all those years ago and met your wife?

4:55

What was it that brought you here?

Brazil has got an amazing array of geology.

I was doing my doctorate at the time in Switzerland, and about 120 million years ago, the Atlantic Ocean separated, the South Atlantic separated, and I was studying the deposits, the sedimentary deposits of that separation.

5:14

And some of the dinosaurs were happening back there.

There was land and you have the sea coming in and you can see all these massive environmental changes happening.

And so I was here to document that using the chemistry, using the sediments, the geology, the fossils, and to try to reconstruct this amazing story.

5:32

So if you want, you could say I met my wife because of the separation of Pangaea 120 million years ago, which would be an accurate thing to say.

And that’s why I’m in Brazil today.

That’s why I have kids.

So thank you very much.

Yeah, there we go.

5:49

So you’re obviously a geologist.

What brought you into this world and did you?

So you’re obviously from the UK, just.

Yeah.

Why geology?

The reason I got into geology was a can of Mountain Dew when I was on a road trip in Arizona.

6:04

I had no idea about geology at the time.

I was kind of a 16 year old knocking around, didn’t know what to do with my life, and I had a can of Mountain Dew and it was one too many and I needed to get the toilet immediately.

So the person I was with stopped near a hedge and I ran through the hedge and it happened to be on the other side of the South rim of the Grand Canyon.

6:24

And at that moment of this awe inspiring view in front of me, this tapestry of oranges smerging up through this incredible Arizona skyline, I forgot about my bladder and the pain that I was facing.

And I was just dumbstruck by what was in front of me.

6:39

And at that moment, I knew that this demanded an excellent how on earth did something like this actually happen?

How is this even possible?

And I guess I could trace it back to that moment in time and that can of Mountain Dew, which set me off from this course through the hedge and faced with the amazing geology of Arizona.

6:57

And I just decided that that was what I wanted to do at university.

I didn’t know what I was going to do with it exactly, but I knew that it was fascinating and beautiful, and that’s what Primary got me into in geology, yeah.

And I’ve seen the Grand Canyon and it is all inspiring.

7:13

Yeah.

And the Badlands in Canada as well.

Those are amazing.

Yeah.

So what was the catalyst then to doing what you do now?

Because obviously one thing is studying geology and then you’ve got a doctorate in geology and you’ve obviously, you know, you’re, you’ve specialized in this area, but you’ve now evolved using this, but to a really fascinating way of working with all of this knowledge that you have.

7:36

And I just think it’s really interesting for two reasons for people actually.

One, to understand that one area that you work in doesn’t necessarily completely define you and you can evolve, but also just why what you’re doing is so important.

So how do they get into this particular area of communication?

7:52

This is actually a very personal story.

I mean, I stumbled into this by accident, and it was when I married my first wife.

This was in 2002, and something terrible happened the day that we got married, she stopped recognizing who I was.

8:08

This was a delusion, a psychotic delusion called cat breast delusion.

I wouldn’t get into the science of that, but I knew that there was this massive break from reality.

So it was actually more sinister than than that.

I mean, she actually recognized who I was, but she didn’t believe that I was hated, and she didn’t even believe her mother was her mother.

8:26

That’s how far it went.

And now this was a transient thing.

It came and went.

It was a lot of psychosis, schizophrenia, a lot of different disorders of the mind.

And as at the time I was enrolled at university doing my PhD in Switzerland, I also had access to all of the neurological literature, the scientific literature on the human brain.

8:46

And I thought, well, I always packed it in.

I always packed in my geology degree because there was, you’re caring for somebody.

This is serious issue and people forget how much carers sacrifice to take care of somebody like that.

But I thought that the best way I could help her would to maybe actually find out what was happening at the level of the brain.

9:05

Well, the correlates of what was happening and I started to study the human brain and I became fascinated by it, really fascinated by it.

I was fascinated by it, especially the neurology of attention and memory formation and recall and how we attend to things and how we are involuntarily grabbed by things.

9:24

It just became a hobby of mine.

But I was able to use that hobby to actually help her by avoiding certain triggers and to actually provide certain stimuli in ways which were productive and to, you know, immediately her, her condition, which is very up and down.

So that really helped.

9:39

Relationship didn’t survive, unfortunately, But I was left with this knowledge of that.

I kind of carried forward and I carried it forward successfully in my lecturing career as a, as a, as a teacher and a professor at the university.

Later I would remarry and I would move to Brazil, as you know.

9:58

But my lectures, even though my Portuguese was limited when I arrived, were always really fun.

And people would really gravitate.

And I would give the these optional modules that would be oversubscribed.

And I was on to something.

Yeah.

And I knew that I was using these neural anchors in the brain.

10:14

I was using this knowledge to my good effect.

And so over the 20 years or so, well, 18 years since that terrible thing happened, there was this kind of a slow motion collision to call it tectonic if you like, in this pace between geology and brain science, you know, when the pandemic hits.

10:33

And I thought this is something there is a need right now in the geosciences for geosciences to communicate more effectively because we’re having some massive issues, global issues, you know, global warming, the need to provide critical minerals for the energy transition, which aren’t coming on because there is so much opposition.

10:50

So how to communicate that to people?

And I knew that I could potentially deploy my skills on mass using online training was the pandemic after everything was online.

And that’s what I did.

I created Geologize as a limited company and I started that journey merging geology and.

11:08

Brain science.

I didn’t know any of this about you, Aiden.

I can’t believe I’ve known you for so long.

And I Yeah, This is why I love these podcasts.

Yeah, these personal stories, when we’ve met before, it’s always been at school, you know, surrounded by people have things happening because I want the kind of deep conversations which are kind of revelatory and like your, your mouth drops and it’s like, well, what’s going on here?

11:30

You don’t want to share these things in person.

But when it comes to helping people and some help personal journeys affect their professional career, which is part of what we’re talking about here is.

Relevant, it is relevant for the listeners.

Just how would you explain then geologize?

11:46

And obviously it started in the pandemic.

It was no doubt what it was then.

I imagine just like TIE has evolved so much since, you know, we have morphed into other things.

So what is geologized?

Who engages with it and what?

What has it become?

12:02

Three years before the pandemic, I had geologized as a social media platform where I just literally do engagement.

I would I’d be a content creator.

I would show people really fun and interesting ways of how their everyday lives are connected to the planet.

This was not about pushing anything.

I never push anything.

12:18

It’s just interesting, genuinely interesting things that people see in their day by day lives and show them how it’s connected to the planet.

It could be a phone.

It could be a roundabout.

You could talk about Coriolis forces and hurricanes and how they twist and you can actually simulate that on a roundabout.

12:35

You could talk about politics.

I talked about Donald Trump and how unfortunately, geological circumstances millions of years ago gave him an unfavorable advantage in his election.

Talk about, you know, slush puppies, you know, slushies and down a tube and they kind of erupt and, and it’s kind of fun and it simulates gas explosions in Siberia, all these things which are fun.

12:57

And I was getting people sending me stuff like them replicating what I was doing.

And they was like, I understand, I understand now how these complicated things work.

And I didn’t understand at school, just by using stuff around me, I was really gratifying.

The benefit I had back then is I had a full time, well paying job and I could actually do that for free.

13:16

When the pandemic hit, I became redundant.

I couldn’t do it anymore.

I had to find a job.

So I said to myself, you know what?

I’m going to actually do this business myself.

I will actually employ my skills as a successful teacher to teach Geo scientists.

There’s more than Geo scientists nowadays, but teach Geo scientists on mass to communicate because this is such an essential subject.

13:37

Because we have faced so many global issues with the earth sciences that need addressing.

We need a better understanding from the public about these global issues and we need more people choosing geoscience related areas at university so we have the human resources to tackle these massive problems.

13:55

So as a first all of concern, I need to not be alone.

I can’t be just a drop in the ocean.

I have to create an ocean, right?

I have to create an Armada, if you like, of geoscientists to go forth and talk powerfully with the public.

And that’s what the whole point of my training program was.

14:13

So, So today I don’t do social media anymore.

That’s part of the course.

I train geoscientists, but also engineers and other scientists to powerfully communicate with the public in ways of which use empathy and use the human brain as a biological apparatus and it’s evolutionary psychology to actually engage and create emotion in the listener or the reader or whatever.

14:38

And that’s the whole point of the product of my whole company, really.

And it’s interesting because, you know, I had a call just before our call now, and we’re going to get to this in a bit, but I mentioned that I’m going to be doing a talk or the American Chamber of Commerce and how there’s going to be a big mining.

14:56

Well, there’s going to be a company there and mining is part of it.

And, you know, the the immediate response from the individual I was talking to was, oh, God, yeah.

Just need another mining company to destroy our planet.

And it’s interesting because mining companies struggle from APR point of view, both from the point of view of what they actually do, but to also recruit people.

15:18

And we’re going to get to this in a second.

But I just, I find it fascinating how you’ve really tapped into an area that is really needed geology, which then obviously goes into mining and now for people to want to work in it.

At the end of the day, we do need mining.

15:34

But the question is, is everyone leaves mining and doesn’t work in mining, then that’s not going to help the world, neither from making it more sustainable, but nor from we need the minerals.

Yeah.

So it’s fascinating, right?

It’s a it’s a conundrum and Brazil particularly, you have a very poor relationship with the public and justifiably so, if I might say, because the disasters that have happened, which are the tailings dams that have collapsed and have buried villages, valet have not conducted themselves with the greatest esteem when it comes to transparency public relations.

16:13

They’ve they kind of battled at every step of the way.

This just corroborates the public sentiment which mining companies can’t be trusted?

As you know, in Brazil, we have wonderful laws, but the enforcement is very poor, right?

And so again, this narrative that mining companies are in cahoots with the government, the environmental agencies can’t be trusted and you only need one or two mine disasters to ruin the global image of mining.

16:41

It happens every two or three years as a disaster.

Rio Tinto in in Australia blew up Aboriginal caves like sacred caves.

And as oopsie Daisy, we didn’t mean to do that.

OK, CEO got fired.

You know, share price tumbled by 20%.

16:58

That’s like about 20 billion.

But this just goes to show that communication and lack of communication has huge fiscal consequences for the companies, but it also in some ways, much more importantly, has a massive impact on public perception, damages the energy transition because as you said, we need more critical minerals.

17:22

If we if we want EVs, if we want a more sustainable, we want to move away from fossil fuels, We’re going to need to have more copper and nickel and lithium and other elements, especially the rare earth elements.

And right now we have a massive shortage of these and public want more of it, but at the same time, they don’t want more mining.

17:46

OK, So we’ll tackle it from both ends.

You’ve got to make money more sustainable.

You have to bring on board the environmentalists.

People are typically ambivalent or hostile towards it to work together, money companies to clean up its act and be more transparent.

18:03

All of these things what do they have in common?

Communication all needs to be much more trust and that comes through effective communication and listening.

And so I consider my company apart from its training as somewhat of a, a middle person somewhat midway between these two.

18:19

So I speak to both sides.

Typically these two sides don’t like talking to each other because they don’t trust each other.

And so I I bring them together and that’s the other part of my business, you.

Know what are some then what are the challenges that you are facing and what is working.

If I’m talking about global issues, it’s actually about having to change the mining industry.

18:38

If I’m really honest about it, changing the resources sector in general, actually the way that it communicates, because there are entrenched, ingrained views and ways of doing things which aren’t easily unpicked.

So right now they have this issue.

18:57

It’s called the advocacy paradox.

The advocacy paradox, if you’ve ever heard of it, means that whatever they say to the public, whatever these companies say to the public, the public aren’t going to believe them because they are saying it, right?

You’re not going to believe a mining company when the mining company says mining is important because they would say that, wouldn’t they?

19:17

It’s just like the Pope saying that he believes in God.

Well, that’s not a surprise, is it?

That’s that’s he’s just doing his job.

But if the Pope was to say that he doesn’t believe in God, he might be on to something, right?

You want to listen to that?

Same goes with these massive corporations and even smaller players.

19:34

They always say what’s expected.

And so one of my biggest challenges is to actually say, guys, listen to the other side, listen to those across the red line.

The first thing you need to do, we’ll talk about this before we started recording, is to reflect back to them what they’re saying.

19:52

You have to tell them and show them, exemplify to them that you understand.

And then you need to go out of your way to make sure you give them everything that you everything they want.

I mean, not necessarily everything, but.

Do as hard as you can to provide them what they need because then you’re actually showing goodwill and then you might actually beyond or something.

20:13

Then you might actually you have some currency trust.

Trust is the ultimate currency with dealing with these massive global challenges that we have today.

Using communication to generate trust, that’s the 1st order of concern for me as a legacy issue for me personally is to try to how to impart that information to these big corporations.

20:33

Those are the sort of the challenges what’s working because one thing is having these companies telling people what they want to hear.

But like you say, having them believe what they are hearing is a whole other issue, right?

Yeah.

So that then brings us to the the point around understanding that there’s some innate real challenges within the sector that are not going to be fixed overnight.

20:59

But knowing that people are going in that direction is obviously what the public wants to hear, what the share price needs to see.

And so I’m just curious, you know, obviously it’s been like my work.

I’ve got my big lofty goals, which I know overnight I’m not going to solve and I know on my own I’m not going to solve, but they, they give me my direction, my sort of North Star.

21:22

Yeah.

And everything I do is in line with that.

I’m curious, you know, like what is working for you when you have your goal?

What is working in the work that you’re doing right now?

The.

First thing I would say is that it’s been going a bit less than four years now and it was in pandemic.

21:38

So the ways that I’m trying to influence industry, it tends to have a payback over, I don’t know, a decade or say something like this.

This is these time which global affairs operate on, especially when it comes to energy and you know, net zero and things like that.

21:53

But my performance indicators are endorsements, obviously, adoption of the training.

If I have to say just this is right here in my backyard right now and the feedback that I get and stories that people tell me about how improved communication has helped, like this tangent.

22:13

Like.

How it’s helped.

So right now you have 10 esteemed geoscience related organizations who endorse the training from around the world.

There are two hundred 300,000 people with access to the training through various licenses.

And right now on the platform, there are 30,035 thousand people doing the training.

22:34

That this is what I’m starting to create this ocean and I’m really proud about that is this is literally a sea change in the way people think that remember there wasn’t there wasn’t even any demand for this when I started out.

There was only a need that I could see that was needed, but nobody was actually thinking training.

22:54

Then there you go.

And so I created the demand and the need then fed the demand further that created the good numbers like nowadays.

And then the finally, as I said, it’s the feedback.

Just last week I had a junior mining engineer from Nebraska contact me and said they had done my training last year and they went to a town hall meeting and they had done this exercise a couple of times.

23:21

The time before they did the training, it was a complete disaster.

People shot them down.

It was very hostile and they didn’t know what to do.

And this time they’d done the meeting and the public will not won over.

But they felt validated.

They gave.

23:36

They gave support to this person.

They said we want to work with you and to make this project successful and then suddenly that mining operation, which is a respected good miner in this case something has a fighting chance of getting off the ground rather than they would have plowed 10 million into exploration and never actually extracted anything because of a no social license to operate.

24:01

We get stuck in litigation for years.

Now it’s happening and they just saved themselves 10s of 1,000,000, if not hundreds of millions of of dollars.

And that’s simply because of communication.

And that’s what I get these stories, these stories very frequently.

24:16

So that makes me feel it’s having a big difference.

It’s working.

Totally, I love that that is such a great that is such a great story and it you can just see the ripple effects of that as well, isn’t it?

And it, and it’s similar to the, the book that we were just talking about, you know, never split the difference, which is talking about negotiation and how you think that to negotiate, you need to be aggressive and you need to, I need to win over them.

24:40

And, you know, but actually, isn’t it amazing how it’s all rooted in empathy and it’s rooted in understanding and it’s rooted in showing that you, you understand that the other individual.

And once you break down those barriers, then you could start to have a conversation.

24:57

It comes down to these human competencies that, you know, I work in, you work in and to understand the importance of of that to move a mining industry forward in the direction needs to go in.

That’s massive for our planet, but also for the sector which we do need, but it needs to, you know, go in the right direction.

25:16

Oh, yeah.

And that’s why I don’t like the expression that communication and empathy are soft skills because I don’t think they are a soft anymore.

I think they’re critical skills.

Yeah.

You know, if we’re going to succeed as a species and not, you know, put ourselves at risk of extinction, we need more empathy urgently in order to execute these great endeavors that we have to do to to actually carry ourselves forward.

25:42

And for a mining company and mining companies are very dependent on on their share prices.

They are almost exclusively dependent on raising capital that way.

If they don’t communicate and empathize with the local community, then simply they will go under because their share price will plunge and they will go out of business.

26:03

So this is just an example, and that’s another example of why these kinds of soft but actually critical skills actually.

Are a competitive advantage.

The making they are they’re absolutely critical to the success of any business.

Fascinating, so fascinating.

26:18

What gets you excited every day?

Stories like the one I told you get me really excited.

Well, what gets me in the morning is I have to go to the gym.

Otherwise I feel rubbish but my kids.

But knowing that just coming to my son’s bedroom here to actually work, which I’ve commandeered as a temporary office, just coming here knowing that it’s making a difference.

26:40

That’s what keeps me doing my business because it’s just, it pays the bills.

It puts my kids into a decent school.

And what else does a parent need in life except to see their kids happy, but also to make a positive difference?

26:57

That’s what makes a complete human being, I think, a mission and taking care of what’s around you.

I guess just pushing on the, the work that you’re doing and again, specifically around this area that I just find so interesting.

And let me just provide a little bit of context for the listeners.

27:13

So I’m gonna be doing a talk for the American Chamber of Commerce.

So I’m gonna be doing a couple of keynotes, but then I’m also gonna be on a panel.

And on the panel, there’s gonna be this mining company and a consulting company and a YouTube is gonna be on there as well.

And we are going to be talking about the sort of three pillars of what it means to be more human from the point of view of my book Return on Humanity.

27:36

So I talk about it from, you know, the concept of the importance of self-awareness.

And I talk about it from the importance of interdependence.

So we need more people coming together.

We need to bring more voices into these solutions.

The big challenges that our world faces and interconnectedness, how we are all connected.

27:55

So a decision made in one place impacts another.

And from the point of view of being more human, for companies to be people first, it’s putting people before profit.

And yes, profit follows that.

I’m not suggesting companies can’t be profitable or shouldn’t be profitable, but that can’t be the only focus for getting all of the other stakeholders.

28:15

And when we had a conversation a little while ago when I suddenly realized we need to have you on the podcast, I found some of these issues fascinating in the area that you work in.

So one, bringing in other voices, the importance of diversity, the concept of stakeholders in the environment and decisions made in one place dramatically impact communities in Brazil.

28:38

And another place, you know, enforcement of laws, etc.

And so the way that this world or this industry or sector works very much plays in all of these areas that I talk about.

And I’m just, you know, the impact on the planet, but also the impact on diversity, etc.

28:55

So I found this fascinating.

I hadn’t even thought about some of the areas before we had spoken.

And I just wonder, in the context of your work and your training, how is this all related?

Well, so diversity inclusion, as you know is a vast area and it takes different forms, diversity of opinion, gender diversity, ethnic diversity, everything diversity comes into play.

29:20

And when I think about diversity, all I can say with regards to that is that the more diversity this has been racked up by just so many academic studies that the more diverse your workforce or your work group or your board or whatever, the more success for your businesses.

29:37

And there is a simple reason for that is because you’re literally then bringing along with you more stakeholders.

So I could, I could go on and just do what I do and to hell with everybody else.

And I believe in my mission and my mission might be very, very good, might just be me, but it won’t.

29:55

I’m bringing in a, a slice of demographic which is very, very narrow, people who agree with me.

And that might be large, but it’s probably quite small.

We’re all individuals.

We all have our preconceived ideas, but as soon as I suddenly start listening and including people and going after people who disagree with me and saying I need you to tell me why I’m wrong.

30:17

As soon as I start seeking that diversity, I suddenly not only they become stakeholders in my project, but I learned from them.

I manoeuvre my mission to include a larger and larger slice of the demographic, the population where I’m targeting, whether it be, you know, community, country, global community.

30:40

I bring along people and that then becomes a movement rather than me going straight ahead.

And so that’s what I take home from that is that the more diversity you have in your project, the more powerful and impactful it’s going to be.

Yeah, I found it crazy just thinking on the ground logistics, how some of the challenges are very real.

31:00

And it’s extraordinary, isn’t it, how many of the sites don’t even have toilets for women and don’t have.

Toilets, PPE, you know, personal protective gear, they’re all like men.

That’s just a basic thing to know.

It is very, yeah, but it’s.

31:17

That’s dignity, but if you don’t don’t even show that level, that basic level of dignity, then obviously a woman isn’t going to want to speak up, you know, if you’re valued.

So they’re going to feel quite a lot of angst in terms of actually speaking up because that’s just the way it is.

31:33

And I will go on to do I go on further, I can go on to talk about neuro diversity and I will talk about, you know, how bringing in more neuro diverse people is going to immensely strengthen your, your bottom line and your company.

Because now they’re actually considered strengths.

31:49

These new diverse traits are considered strengths.

Whether that’s hyper focus with ADHD or whether it’s out-of-the-box lateral thinking with dyslexia and level one autism, then it’s a short on the foot not to be diverse.

In fact, the biggest and most successful companies in the world actually reverse engineer their job descriptions to target the neuro diverse.

32:13

Now if you’re not neuro diverse, it’s not the end of the world because you can learn to think in a diverse fashion.

You can learn to think like a neuro diverse person.

So you’ve become, you’re literally rewiring your brain to become a diverse thinker, out-of-the-box thinker.

And I can’t think of any other skill which is more important in addressing these intractable issues that we have today.

32:33

Neo diverse people simply cannot think normally.

But that is the thing.

That is the thing that we need.

We cannot think normally anymore.

We must think in a diverse fashion and we must need to think in that way.

So Neo diversity is going to help your business.

32:50

It’s going to help your successful.

So yeah, diversity all the way.

Amazing.

So interesting.

Is there like a take away that you can leave somebody with who is listening that might be overlapping with their work?

33:05

I mean, first of all, I, I just mentioned about divergent opinions and to make sure that you’re surrounded by people who, who disagree with you in some ways.

In many ways, that’s what’s made George Ice successful.

And that’s not something that’s easily done.

I talked about brain science at the beginning.

I know very well why it’s not easy.

33:22

It’s because there’s a part of your brain called the interior cingulate cortex, which starts to literally vibrate but starts to produce transmissions to the amygdala, which makes you think really, like, I want to avoid that.

I don’t like that.

I’m going to go away from that.

So I understand that we are not predisposed to seeking divergent opinions, which creates dissonance in ourselves.

33:44

But in fact, pushing yourself, we always say, you know, we need to take our children out of our comfort zone.

It makes them, it helps them grow up.

Well, that never stops.

We need to do that to ourselves in order to grow.

And you need to do it for yourself, for your business in order to grow your business.

34:00

So seek out that diversity of opinion, challenge yourself and make yourself comfortable about feeling uncomfortable because it’s the best thing.

Taking a cold shower in the morning actually helps because that’s like, you’ve got to get over that.

It’s literally, it’s actually proven.

If you can take a cold shower in the morning, then you are literally rewiring your brain to confront challenges that make you feel uncomfortable.

34:23

You actually seek it out more often.

It’s been, it’s been proved.

And so, yeah, that would be my biggest takeover.

You mentioned.

I think I’ve talked about it.

Well, it has everything to do with what tie status for for sure.

So for our listeners, I’ll include a link on the blurb.

Do you want to share how people can get involved or if they do know people in the in the sector, how they can get involved?

34:44

I’m involved with an entity called the Essential Minerals Association.

Now, it sounds very geologic, but actually it works with the whole value chain of geology.

So from extraction of raw materials all the way to supply chain all the way to the end user, they’re all part of this organization.

35:00

Because obviously everything that we consume, everything around you today except the wood on your staircase that I can see, it’s all mined everything.

So that means that anybody who is involved in supply chains, anyone who’s involved with sourcing material should be very concerned about the public opinion of the geosciences because that’s where your products come from.

35:23

So if you would like to lower your production costs over the next 10/10/15 years, it would be good to invest in the public education of how they are connected to the planet.

Okay, now this is an indirect relationship.

35:40

There is no clear KPI here and there’s no clear ROI.

But this is somebody coined the phrase recently, return on humanity.

This is a way to actually give back to humanity education, but also to help your business in diverse areas.

36:01

And so anybody could do this training.

And in fact, I have many people who are not scientists who do my training and they go away feeling empowered and able to make a real difference because it is just empathy and communication.

And they will learn a lot from it.

So they can reach out to me and if they want to do it, great.

So we’ll, we’ll include the and then and then we can.

36:19

Exclusive 70% discount for all listeners of this podcast.

How about that?

And they can do that, yeah.

But if they want to help, please reach out to me personally.

And you can sponsor a university, you can sponsor a society.

36:35

The Geological Society of Brazil is looking for a sponsor to give access to their 10s of thousands of members.

That would really help change public attitudes in Brazil, out the geosciences, earth sciences, connectedness to the planet.

So that’s a possibility.

There’s lots of ways you could support right?

36:51

Amazing.

Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to tell our listeners?

What I would say is that humanities and the sciences, which is like your domain and my domain, but now I’m encroaching onto the humanities.

I think these two spheres of need to be brought closer together.

37:08

OK.

And I think that needs to be start at school.

I think students actually need to understand how arts, music, language, how this is all related to the planet.

And there are ways to do this.

And I teach geologists actually how to do that too.

37:24

But I just want people to feel more connected to the planet.

And I think the way to do that is through education and communication.

Hayden this has been so interesting on so many levels.

It’s so easy for us to think that these other sectors don’t impact us as the everyday human on this planet.

37:42

And they do in tremendous ways from obviously knowing where minerals come from and making sure that they’re extracted in the best way.

And you know, that they keep our communities safe the way, you know, so those laws are enforced.

37:58

But it’s even bigger than that.

It’s sort of how can I can be a driver of change within another sector if I am interested in a certain area like geology, there is a way that you can use it and actually be a driver of change rather than thinking that you’re just going in to, you know, destroy the planet.

38:14

And I think all of this just it’s empowering and it’s eye opening and there’s so much more to talk about, but at least this scratches the surface.

And I just really appreciate your time because it’s, it’s fascinating.

It just goes to show how important it is that we do start to get into these other sectors because it’s all connected and we need to talk more with one another.

38:34

So.

It’s all connected and I’m really happy to have had this chat with you and I really hope that your your listeners have got something out of it.

Thank you so much for reaching out.

Take care, Hayden.

Thank you.

Take.

Care bye.

Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.

38:50

I hope you enjoyed listening.

Now this is your chance to get involved with Tai.

If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.

We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.

39:13

Or check out my book, Return on Humanity Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.

You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the forefront of competition.

You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.

39:33

Get in touch and I can explain more.

A huge thanks to Bethan Naviera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.

I hope we’ll meet up again soon.