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Welcome to the show where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.
Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.
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Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the global North or the global S, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed and we’re back with a new season of TIE Unearthed.
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So what does it take to lead in an unpredictable, fast changing world?
To inspire teams across 20 markets, embrace diversity and stay true to your values while navigating crises like pandemics, wars, and societal inequalities.
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Welcome to episode 101 of TIE Unearthed.
In this episode, I’m thrilled to welcome Fernanda Lopez Larsen, Executive Vice President at Yara International, a Norwegian multinational company delivering crop nutrition solutions to smallholder farmers across the world.
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Her region’s being focused on Africa, Asia and Oceania.
She’s a global C-Suite executive who has more than 20 years experience in the agricultural, fast moving goods and pharmaceutical industries and has been with Yada International since 2012.
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And her leadership journey has taken her from Brazil to Austria to Singapore and beyond.
A path shaped by resilience, curiosity, and a belief that we must aim higher than what others expect of us.
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We delve into her story, from creating opportunities for underrepresented groups in her organization to steering her team through some of the most volatile moments in recent history.
We explore how empathy, cultural understanding, and inclusive decision making.
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They’re not just leadership buzzwords.
They’re the keys to building trust, unlocking innovation, and creating meaningful change.
As Fernanda reminds us, you’re not late, you are on time.
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The process was preparation.
This is a conversation filled with wisdom, real life challenges, and powerful lessons on leading with courage and connection in today’s complex world.
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So throw in those running shoes or grab that favorite beverage and let’s do this.
Hi Fernanda, thank you so much for joining me on TIE Unearthed.
How are you?
Hi, Felipe, Great to be here.
3:15
I’m I’m fine, I’m fine.
So.
Good.
Well, tell me, where are you?
Because we’re on other ends of the planet for our listeners who are listening.
And I do speak to people literally all over the world.
Paint a picture for us, please.
Yes.
3:30
So I am speaking from Singapore.
That’s where I live, That’s where I’m based.
I’ve been living here for almost four years now.
For those who don’t know me, my name is Fernanda Lopez Larson.
I am Brazilian, born and raised.
I’m also a British citizen by naturalization, but as you can hear, I don’t have a British accent.
3:49
And yeah, right now living in Singapore, but I have lived in I think 6 countries to date, mostly in Europe and then of course, Brazil and all Asia, Singapore.
So yeah, I left Brazil 25 years ago to pursue my master’s studies.
4:05
And 25 years later, so you haven’t made back home.
I’m still exploring the world.
How amazing.
So perhaps you can just talk to us then about your life and you know where you’re working and the journey that got you there.
4:23
I currently work for a Norwegian company.
So it’s a Norwegian multinational.
It’s called the ARA.
So we are, we produce or manufacture crop nutrition solutions, so fertilizers, bio stimulants, biological products.
4:40
And I am one of the regional Evps or executive vice presidents, so I lead region Africa and Asia Pacific.
So it’s basically Africa, Asia and Oceania.
So we call it a region, but it’s basically 3 continents.
4:56
Yes, it’s huge.
So I’m part of the management of the company.
And yeah, I’ve been in this position for four years now.
And my region, we are about 2000 people across 20 markets in those three continents.
And yeah, what we do, we manufacture, we distribute and sell those crop nutrition solutions across the three continents, mostly all holder farmers and and really small retailers.
5:23
So those are my customers.
And I don’t know if you know, but most of the food that we eat in the world are actually produced by small holder farmers.
So farmers, they have really, really tiny plots of land.
Some of them are subsistence farmers.
So those are my customers.
5:38
So it’s it’s business, but at the same time you feel like you’re helping the world.
Like it would help families.
Literally, you know, like you, you see how your products or solutions can change their lives, right?
So when they get better yield, when they produce more food, they have more money, they can send their kids to school, build an extension in their houses.
6:01
So it’s, it’s quite, quite fulfilling.
Prior to that job, I would say the first part of my career, I was in a different industry.
I was in a different sector.
So I worked in FMCG.
So first a Procter and Gamble and then later the consumer healthcare division of Glocks was missed.
6:17
Klein.
So I always say the first 12 years of my career, I was in consumer facing industries.
And then in this second part of my career, I working process chemical industry.
And then you asked about the journey that got me here.
6:33
So I, I, I think I, I asked that myself, you know, like, what have I done over the past years that placed me exactly in this moment here right now in Singapore, having this conversation with you?
And I think the journey was never planned, to be honest.
6:49
I was very young when I left Brazil.
I was a very plannies.
I wanted another an adventure, you know, I wanted to explore the world and and see what existed beyond Brazil.
I think the only master plan that I had was to actually try to study abroad, so do my master’s degree abroad, which I did.
7:10
So I finished my bachelor’s in Brazil and then I wanted to do a master’s degree abroad and I did that in a in Austria.
And then the idea was to, you know, like I said, the master plan was to go back to Brazil after that.
And I never managed.
So I managed the master’s, but I never managed the return home.
7:29
And I think that, like I said, I don’t think I strictly planned every single step of my journey, but I think there were, I don’t know, values or principles that I stuck to or stuck by that helped me right get where I am now.
7:44
I think, I think if I could summarize them in a sentence, I would say that what got me here was more the ability to wish more for myself and never settle for what others were willing to give me, but but rather go for the things that I thought I had the competence to do.
8:04
I grew up in the 80s in Brazil.
You know, there weren’t many options, right?
For a black girl like me, If you come from poverty in Brazil and you live in Brazil, you know, you know how it is unfortunately still a little bit like that.
You come from poverty, you get stuck in the lower layers right, of society.
8:22
I didn’t come from poverty, but I come from a lower middle class.
So the options for me, I would say were you know, you get lucky, marry well or you become, I don’t know, a teacher or, you know, no disrespect to any of those professions, but, you know, to have a black girl dreaming to go abroad to study engineering, it was something I would say unthinkable, you know, for my family, unthinkable, you know, for someone like me.
8:46
So those were not the dreams I think that we were supposed to have at that time.
But I got lucky in the sense that my parents always lived in me.
They always focus on education.
They invested everything they had in me and, and, and my brother.
9:03
And I think was that combination right?
Their investment in my stubbornness and and desire to do more in my life that actually got me here today.
So it’s been a long journey and I’m very grateful for that investment that my parents did in me, plus believing that I could do more, that I could be more.
9:22
Isn’t it incredible how, if you plant those seeds in any young person and give them the space to be able to fill it, what is possible?
Exactly.
To be honest, I the other day I was actually talking to my mom about this.
9:39
I, I, she was just like, and we never knew where it came from.
You know, it’s never something that we told you you had to do.
You had to leave Brazil.
You had to aim for more.
I don’t know.
Maybe it was just Born This Way.
Ambitious or curious?
Stubborn A little bit.
9:56
So refusing to accept resilience.
Brazilian.
Yeah, resilient.
I remember when I applied for the scholarship in Austria because I did my master’s degree with a scholarship.
What was your master’s degree in?
Civil engineering, Yeah.
No civil engineer with a specialization of instructor engineering.
10:14
I remember when I applied for the scholarship, My professors at my university in Brazil, there’s just like, you know, we wish you all the best, but you do know that it’s really hard, right, to get a scholarship, especially for masters degrees, because normally people get for PHD’s and Brazilians have that.
10:31
I would say extra complication that at the time, and I think it’s still like that today, we’re not really considered Latinos or super underdeveloped countries.
So the scholarships were for African students or Central American student.
10:47
So I was really in that limbo and nobody actually believed I will get one scholarship, but I actually did.
And, you know, that enabled me to go and, and, and complete my studies.
And yeah, I’m here today.
So you should always try, right?
So I, I told my professor at the time, I already have the no.
11:05
So the only thing that can change is maybe I’ll get a.
Yes.
Oh wow.
God, and I mean, listening to listening to you and, and thinking back to our conversation that we had how, you know, a few months ago and we were reflecting on your COVID experience and just how I mean, for everyone, it was frenetic, it was hard, it was so challenging.
11:31
But on top of all of that, obviously you’re running a global company well, on the management team of a global company that was.
Fraught.
With so many challenges during that time, I’m listening to these values and just what sort of your makeup and what makes you you and how you’ve taken so much of that into your work.
11:52
And I just wonder if you can talk about that, sort of what did you learn about yourself, perhaps professionally and personally during that time or or did it just get the best of you?
It was hard, I know, but.
Like you said, COVID was tough, right?
Was tough for everybody in this world.
12:08
And I think particularly the beginning of the pandemic, I went into a really bad space mentally, emotionally.
I was really afraid of dying and leaving my kids behind.
Remember how that first phase was horrible, all those uncertainties?
12:26
I remember every day watching BBC and we had that ranking of death, right, which countries were losing more people.
So it was horrible.
All those discussions about, you know, is there a cure?
Is there a vaccine?
Yeah.
So that affected me quite deeply.
And I think we saw the best and the worst of humanity during the COVID because the best in the sense that we got the most brilliant scientific minds of this world rallying behind finding a cure, finding the vaccine in a record time, which they did.
12:56
But then we saw the worst in the of the world when if you recall how the distribution of those vaccines was, right?
I mean, there was no unity.
Every country fending for themselves.
Africa completely abandoned in that vaccine race.
So, you know, all that somehow affected me because then I started bleeding Africa, you know, and it was so sad to hear the stories of my own employees, right, Not being able to access vaccine.
13:23
So it does something to you.
And I think when the murder of George Floyd happened, because that was around May, right, May 2020, I think that’s when I, I totally crashed then because it, 1 of it was one of the most horrible things I, you know, I had ever seen.
13:41
I think on TV, someone being murdered and playing daylight.
Remember that awful, awful for the whole world to see and all that commotion that the world felt.
Of course, I felt too, but I, I felt at a much deeper level because I’m a black person, right?
13:58
I’m a mother of black children.
I’m a sister of black brother.
So all the time I was thinking, how many times have I been to the United States, right?
So this could have happened to my kids, God forbid.
But I also felt ashamed because this happens in Brazil, you know, so there are George Floyd’s in Brazil, there are George Floyd’s in South Africa.
14:19
And, and I felt that, OK, it takes for someone to be killed on live TV for me to kind of mobilize and, and try to do something about or try to do something for my own race.
So that was a really wake up call for me in terms of racial awareness of racial activism.
14:38
And I found a lot of purpose through that by creating a program in Yada for for Black.
Yeah, talk to us about that.
Exactly.
So it was, I think it’s still one of the few that you have in Scandinavia.
And we’re really, really proud of that program where we’re elevating Black voices and putting the black employees of Yada through leadership training, career development activities.
15:04
So I think to date, we have, we’ve had more than 80 or 100, I don’t know, even leaders going through that program.
And then you see the results, you know, people moving.
Yeah, people applying for jobs outside of Africa.
So, you know, super, super fulfilling.
15:20
So I think, yeah, personally, I, I learned a few things like the pandemic.
So I think the first one is that I, I cannot control everything, right?
Even if I followed all the measures, all the regulations, my life or my health was still depending on others following the rules as well.
15:37
But in that pandemic chaos, I, I also found, I’d say a calling to break or to continue trying to break racial barriers to push from our equity in the workplace.
As a friend of mine likes to say, the one that Cole Cole created this initiative with me, she said, you know, we need to make sure that George Floyd did not die in vain.
15:58
So she’s American.
So he’s really close to, to her heart too.
So and that’s why we’re pushing this program and and professionally, I think it, it changed all of us also, you know as leaders, I think it took our leadership to a different level.
16:14
So I feel my job description were kind of went beyond growing the business, especially if you are in this part of the world, I mean not necessarily Singapore, but Southeast Asia.
Many of the employees in my organization, the Yara was the only lifeline that they had because in their countries the the health systems had crumbled and we were the ones, you know, that they turned to moments of needs.
16:40
I had called in the middle of the night trying to fight those.
What was the name?
Respirators are exactly right that the help people when they caught COVID.
So yeah, I think it it took empathy levels to to new highs for many leaders.
16:55
And and I think you really understand through a crisis what is to lead, right?
The lead is really to serve, you know, and sometimes you’re serving your company, sometimes you’re serving your business.
But I think during COVID, we saw that yeah, we were serving our employees, right?
And they they were the only ones sometimes that they could count.
17:13
We were the only ones that they could count on.
Very, very transformational.
A very transformational experience, I would say.
You touched on just a thing that I just wanted to point out how in leadership you just can’t control everything in the world that we’re living in.
17:29
I mean, there’s the VUCA description, but you know, it’s incredibly uncertain and ambiguous and just constantly changing and people who like safety and like things to be the same and aren’t really that flexible because they just quite like things, a constant.
17:45
And I think Kovid for sure blew that out of the water completely.
But I think Kovid is just yet another example of what the world is facing now and will face into the future.
And I just wonder because you’ve really been at the heart of these challenges that, you know, and, and also just with how the world is changing from a climate change point of view.
18:09
I mean, you, you guys are at the front end of all of this working with smallholder farmers.
So from the context of the world that you’re working in, the type of company that you’re on, the management team of, what advice do you have for leaders when it comes to resilience and responding to all of this uncertainty?
18:29
A little bit like the realization that I had personally during COVID, except that you cannot and you will not be able to control everything or to know everything.
You have to develop a flexible mindset to understand that the strategies, the plans, the road maps or whatever it is that you create.
18:49
We’re only lost until the world changes again.
But since I’ve been in this job, which is it’s four years now, we had a global pandemic, the war in Ukraine that severely impacted our business.
I think Yada is one of the most impacted companies, right?
19:06
Because to make fertilizers, you need a lot of gas and you need raw materials that mostly used to come from Russia and Belarus.
So you can imagine the level of disruption that is created in our business.
There was a coup d’etat in Myanmar that we had to deal with as well on this part of the world conflict in the Middle East that affects global logistics completely.
19:29
So nothing has ever been normal.
And the four?
Years.
It’s 4.
Years there’s, you know, no breather like it’s one after the other and and so nothing is normal anymore.
I don’t think anything will be normal ever again.
19:45
So when people talk about the new normal, this is actually true.
It’s a completely different new reality that we’re living now.
So I think that, yeah, demonstrating agility of flexibility when you’re needing it’s it’s essential, right?
Yeah.
For for people who like order and plans and and flawless structure, that is a tough exercise.
20:08
That is that is really, really difficult.
But yeah, the only way I think to live through this times yeah is accepting that nothing is going to stay as it is.
And sometimes, you know, you have a bit of peace for one year and then something mega happens again.
20:23
I.
Feel like you’ve developed so many of these competencies over the court.
I mean, also growing up in Brazil, coming from the background that you’ve come from, the fact that you’ve pushed through so many boundaries and just keep pushing and keep pushing.
And like, no, I’m not stopping.
20:38
And so I feel like it’s a part of your alma, your soul, this, this resilience.
But not everybody has had that type of upbringing.
And so for people who haven’t had that kind of upbringing, so people who have come from more perhaps conventional or or safer cultures of where they have grown up, where things have just worked and things have been pretty consistent as far as life experiences.
21:08
And I just wonder for those people who would be working with you on your team or the people that you haven’t, you know that you’re getting in contact with, what are the types of conversations or how, how do you train for this type, these types of competencies?
That’s, that’s a tough question.
21:24
I think as a leader, it starts by being there, right?
And my team is a mix of, of those individuals, individuals who like me grow up in and, you know, a bit in chaos, right?
I grew up in Brazil in the 80s.
21:40
I remember the economy, the inflation of 80.
Percent.
The dictatorship, 80% of day inflation.
I remember my mom queuing up for three hours to buy meat.
You know, because suddenly there was no meat.
And you know how catastrophic that is for Brazilians, right, To not have meat.
21:58
And yeah.
And I have S Africans in my team, you know, Lebanese or people, you know, who grew up with, with that constant flux of change and the other kind of train view.
And then I have people who come from, you know, calmer backgrounds.
22:15
I don’t know if I give any specific advice, but I, I try to be there for them, right?
So be present and try to break down things for them, basically create a safe space where they can raise their concerns, their fears.
To me, I believe a lot in, in, in giving feedback as well.
22:35
It’s, I always say feedback is all right, You know, that we all have.
So I, I want my leaders to, to learn, to experiment, to fail and, and to grow, but they always should have feedback.
And, and I, and I try to do that quite a lot, you know, constructively and in a, I would say safe space in a Safeway, because most of the times what I see in leaders is that, you know, they don’t really understand how they come across, you know, they don’t really understand how others are perceiving them, Particularly in a region like mine where I think the other day we were counting, it’s like over 42 nationalities or something.
23:15
So it’s a Babel Tower like my, you know, my, it’s 3 continents, right?
So you have everything, you have super poor countries and you have Australia, New Zealand, right?
So it’s, it’s complete madness in terms of culture.
So I make sure that I am always enabling them with feedback, with sometimes training to understand the cultural intricacies of Asia, bringing people together, creating bonding experience for Asians to meet Africans, to meet Australians and Kiwis, right?
23:47
So that we create this unity.
But at the same time, you know, still keeping the individuality, right.
So I don’t think everybody has to be the same.
We’re all different people.
And it’s, it’s good to be different.
So I believe in difference.
I think it’s it’s a great strength to create mutual understanding.
24:05
I think that is, that is, that is.
Such a great learning, yeah, to hear all the differences, but to create that mutual understanding that common humanity, right.
Exactly the the the things that we are different and let’s hear all that.
But we we also have a lot in common.
24:20
And let’s find that to realize that when you realize that and that’s what unifies people, isn’t it?
Absolutely so.
Interesting.
We’re much more similar, I think, than than we think, Right.
And even between Africa and Asia, I remember we had a, a summit here.
24:36
When was that?
I think it was about two years ago, Leaders from the entire, from my entire region, they came to Singapore for like 3 days, you know, leadership meetings and sessions.
Yeah, it was kind of a, we call it knowledge exchange.
And in the beginning, everybody was just like, you know, the Africans sitting together in their corner and then the Chinese and the Singaporean because, you know, by day 2 1/2, it was just like my friend from Zambia, my, you know, my Chinese friend from, you know, from Guangzhou.
25:09
And it was so amazing to see how they bonded and how quickly right that how.
Did you do that?
What did you do to do that?
I’m curious.
I think, you know, it’s how you create, how you create the session, right?
The there was a lot about leadership development, there was a lot about inclusion.
25:26
So we had some speakers around DI, but, you know, not focusing on the on the diversity part, only on gender, you know, those things that company normally likes to to focus on, but really focus on the inclusion part.
You know, what it take what it means to be inclusive and.
25:44
And how many times do we say things that don’t sound inclusive, You know, So you should see the eyes, you know, everybody watching like, you know, wow.
You know, nobody’s ever told me that.
Well, you know, having those wow moments, it was, it was fascinating to see.
And then in the end, yeah.
26:00
So the Canadians being friends with the Chinese, with the Filipinos.
So it was really, you know, those cultures coming together because.
Yeah, we are more similar than we are different, I think.
I think this is the the best segue to my next question because I think we’re both very, very passionate about diversity.
26:21
You know, I share your passion, you’re super pat.
I mean, I just, I this kind of stuff just gets me really excited.
And The thing is for us as leaders, teams and companies, for us to be able to make the best decisions, we need to tap into the ideas of everybody at different rungs throughout the, you know, the company, the hierarchical ladder.
26:43
Everyone has relevant knowledge that they can share.
But we also know that when the environment is super complex and uncertain, sort of what we were talking about previously, this is also when you know, a dominant brain is totally insufficient to solve the problem.
27:01
We need to get those diverse voices together to be able to maximize that collective intelligence.
And I’m just wondering, and what you’ve just said, I think is part of the answer for sure, even just having these get togethers.
27:17
But I’m just wondering what are you doing to address this diversity challenge?
And I’m very fortunate, I think, first of all, to be able to do the things on top of my daily job.
Day-to-day job, The day.
To day job exactly right.
27:32
To be this champion for DI as as we call it in the other diversity, equity and inclusion because I do think we’re doing great things.
I think I, I know I’m biased, but I honestly believe that we are doing great things and we are seeing results like I said about the Black talent initiative.
27:48
So our, our program in yada, I would say is very comprehensive.
Of course, we focus on gender.
Gender seems to be the starting point for most companies because it is to a relevant issue in the workplace.
But we do address other areas of intersectionality and I think that’s where it’s super important to, you know, to cover more than just gender.
28:10
So today we have programs that support black employees.
We have a specific program for female agronomists, for example, They face mega challenges in the field.
You know, when you send a female agronomist to the field in India or in Indonesia, you know, very conservative, very traditional countries, you know, there are other things, right, that you need to think about to be able that is female or first, they’re safe and 2nd, that they can actually thrive and, and grow as well.
28:38
We have programs for the LGBTQ community.
We sponsor affinity groups, right?
So diverse is not only a grassroots thing, but we have groups that are funded, that are sponsored and led by people who have the lived experiences, right?
28:57
I think that is super, super important.
So the Black Talent Initiative is led by Black employees, the leaders of the LGBTQ resource group.
They are members of the LGBTQ community, and so on and so on.
And this focus on intersectionality I think is super important because like I say, every day when I wake up, I am a Black woman.
29:19
I’m not just a woman, I am a black woman.
It comes together, you know, I cannot, and I would not even if I could switch off the black part or the female part.
So you get the whole package.
You get the gender, you get the African heritage, you get the Brazilian culture, you get my history, because that’s what makes me right.
29:38
So programs that focus, I think only on one area, they are incomplete because people feel unaddressed, right?
Because I’m more than gender, right?
Or I’m more than sexual orientation.
So I think these intersectionality is what makes us very unique.
29:54
I think in our program and I branded this the three I’s.
So I think in the other we also have intention.
We have involvement and inclusion.
So intention starts with the CEO, right?
I mean from day one when he came like I think nine years ago, he was very firm about the focus.
30:13
So he was that clear tone from the top, unapologetically making already moves in management team to ensure that you know, this is a priority for me and this is this is what yada is going to be.
We set KPIs at the corporate level, we track those KPIs, we hold the leaders accountable, HR accountable and so on.
30:33
Then of course there’s inclusion part that we talked a bit, you know, where you, you need to design interventions, you know, to make people feel part right of this company, you, you have to highlight people’s contributions.
You need to use inclusive language, for example, now on holidays, right, or Christmas holidays, yes.
30:51
So we’re very careful to say, you know, Merry Christmas and I’m, I’m in Asia.
Half of the people in Singapore are Buddhists, you know, they may not even be celebrating right Christmas.
So how hard it is just to say happy holidays?
Happy holidays.
Right.
31:07
Or happy break or you know it doesn’t cost anything to use inclusive language.
So we pay a lot of attention to that aspect as well.
So that was more like on the inclusion part.
But then of course, on the involvement part is really about those, those Ergs, as we call the employee resource groups because we believe so much into into that strategy, because these Ergs, they help a dual purpose.
31:31
They first, ER, GS, what are ERC employee resource group, employee resource group, resource group.
So they help shed light on the issues, right, that some communities are facing.
And my, I might not have a clue, right?
31:48
It’s not because I’m a woman in black and you know, I take a lot of boxes of the, you know, of the GI spectrum, but it doesn’t mean that understand every issue.
I don’t know what it is to be Arab in France, right.
I believe there are similarities in the experience, but there are things that are totally unique problem probably to the Arab community.
32:05
So they have the experience.
So they are the ones that I would say the better position to lead the cause forward.
So we need those Ergs because they give you visibility of what the issues are and also they are safe space, right for employees to go and talk about what, what is important to them, talk about the issues, the things that matter to them.
32:27
So we are a really, really strong believer in this.
And, and since we started particularly after the Black Talent initiative, there are lots of those Ergs now and, and that’s exactly what we want.
Of course you cannot, maybe you can, but we haven’t done that yet to capture everything through KPIs, etcetera.
32:46
But but that’s not the purpose.
Also it’s it’s, you know, it’s really to yeah.
To create those places where people can be themselves.
When we last spoke on the phone, you said something and I just wanted to see if if you could explain it a little bit more.
You said that transformation isn’t just looking at the business and sustainability and crisis.
33:07
The leadership piece also needs to change.
And I just wonder what you mean by that.
In what way does leadership need to change?
I consider myself privilege, you know, to work for a company where I can, you know, I can do all those cool things.
33:23
GI we have a very, very strong sustainability agenda, sustainability strategy.
Also the narrative in the corporate world is still very conservative in every industry that you look, some industry more industry is more, some industry less, but it’s still right that idea of you go there, you know, you are the big boss and you are there only to grow the business and, you know, forget the human side.
33:48
So, and that’s what I mean when I say the leadership narrative, I think in companies or in the corporate world, in my view, still needs to change, still has some way to go because leadership for me is what enables change to happen.
You can have the best strategy, the best plans, but without that glue, because for me, leadership is the glue that binds everything together, business with the strategy, with people with transformation.
34:15
And I see so many business creating great strategy that have fantastic targets.
They want to facilitate the green transition.
And that’s all noble and I think necessary.
But then if you ask them, OK, but what kind of leaders do you have to take this forward, right?
Because we talked about VUCA and everything is different now.
34:33
It’s different.
It’s hard to lead a business to a green transition, you know, do we have the creative leaders who are flexible enough in their mindset to change, to think differently, to, you know, create different environments to lead in uncertainty?
34:51
Do you have brave, do you have courageous leaders who, for example, are going to take the difficult conversations with CFOs, with investors, with shareholders, you know, when the things that you’re working on may not be profitable yet, It’s because this whole transition is, you know, has a long term horizon.
35:09
But do you have the leaders that are willing to, you know, sometimes stand alone in the frontline when all other companies, not all their companies, but many companies are backtracking right in their commitments?
You know, I got too tough.
Now, you know, I got pressure from investors.
35:24
Now, you know, I need to stop investing in the transition and the green transition.
So how are we cultivating the leaders that are going to drive this transition?
Because you need the flexibility, you need the agility, you need the courage.
Those conversations are super hard.
35:40
It’s so interesting to hear this from someone who is in your position with your background, what you’re seeing every single day.
This is what I talk about with the work that I do.
And I talk a lot about how the future are these what used to be called soft skills.
35:56
And I just think they’re not soft skills.
They’re like the critical power skills that if you’re people don’t have them, you don’t have a future of a company.
And I just wonder from you said them sort of flexibility.
What would you say are like the top five or you know, what are the the key skills that you think are absolutely fundamental now?
36:14
Good question.
For me, flexibility in the thinking, curiosity because you need smart solutions, utility, courage and all because it’s not easy, right?
I see those discussions both from being the leader of a business unit and also as a board member, right, because I also have board positions and, you know, we see those projects being presented.
36:36
You know, it’s super tough, you know, to stand there and defend, you know, why you’re going to put money, I don’t know, in a project that probably has a lower return than than, you know, some other project that you know, is not so great, right?
So those are really, really difficult decisions and and the ability to get people behind you, I don’t know how to define that in one.
36:58
Form I mean to react to empathy, I guess empathy to then like they understand you to then get them.
Exactly empathy because you know, people follow people, right?
So you don’t follow spreadsheets or PowerPoint presentations.
37:15
People follow people.
So you can have the most brilliant functional expert in the world.
But if you want to implement something, if you want to change things, you need the things behind you.
So if you if you don’t have or not even have because I don’t think we’re born like that, but if you don’t develop that skill, then I think transformation is is really difficult.
37:35
Yes, I won’t say those those.
Fascinating.
It’s so interesting because another thing that I, I talk a lot about in the, you know, in the speaking that I do, and so much of this comes down to connection and belonging.
People don’t connect to spreadsheets, they don’t connect to P&L statements and you know, money and making money and making more money.
37:55
That’s not what people wake up in the morning and, you know, get to their screen or get to the office and feel really excited about that they can that they’re working with and they feel a part of an overall mission and they feel active actors in making whatever it is happen.
38:16
Exactly.
Exactly.
And they?
Connect to the people like you who are running the, you know, the teams and their team leaders and the other people on their team.
And that doesn’t just happen.
You need to have the people who understand how to cultivate those skills and how you know and and to have them to be able to get people along so.
38:37
Yeah, absolutely fantastic.
Sometimes it’s only about being present and listening.
I know it sounds really, really basic, but sometimes that really is the case, particularly when you have teams in conflict.
Like I had a situation recently where the team was really fighting and nobody got along with anybody right, and all this back poke and blah, blah, blah.
39:02
Then I got involved to kind of, you know, go and fix it.
All they wanted was to be heard.
You know, there’s just like, you know, I don’t feel that they are taking my points of view into consideration.
They don’t need to do the way that I’m telling them to do.
But I just want to say my piece.
You know, that’s what I heard from people just like, OK, this is the easiest job ever.
39:20
So, you know, I just sat there like I’m sitting here with you, like, OK, you have one hour, you know, let me know, you know, what is in your heart, what’s going on?
How are you feeling?
Right.
And, and I felt was almost like a bit of therapy that I was doing.
But that’s what it is.
39:36
It’s it’s listening and it’s letting people talk through it exactly and understand what’s happening.
And that is a very powerful tool.
Tool and at the end of the day, many situations.
I’m not saying this is the formula that you can use for every, but in many situations is actually about that.
39:54
And there’s just like, I’m going to be behind whatever is decided.
I just want to make sure that, you know, because everybody wants to contribute.
Everybody wants to help.
I, my my husband sometimes say, you know, you’re too naive.
But I do believe in the good of people.
I do, I do.
I do think that the toxic evil ones are the exceptions.
40:13
People want to contribute.
Yeah, sometimes they have their own stubborn way of of contributing, but but that’s in the end what they want.
And yeah, so now the team is functioning much better and, you know, having those open conversations with them, just like, OK, this is what’s going on, right?
40:31
So and this is what we’re going to do.
And sometimes give that sense of direction that they kind of lost with all the fights and blah, blah, blah.
So yeah.
Do you have any just sort of an easy take away or something that you can leave our listeners with a tool or something that sort of OK, this is what I do every week for my team or this is something that is just, it really works really, really well.
40:50
It’s super simple.
Do you just have a a quick take away that you can leave people with?
Listening as we just talked about, right?
So listening, being authentic.
I feel that if I was playing the role, people wouldn’t trust me.
I am like, what you see here is really what you get.
41:08
Be yourself and really give feedback and ask for feedback.
And especially the ask feedback part.
You know, not everybody likes it, right?
And I’m not saying I loved it either, but it is necessary because we have so many blind spots.
41:24
Sometimes you say some things that people misinterpret like completely because we are from different cultures, different backgrounds.
We all speak English differently.
You know, sometimes the English translation gets goes really, really wrong.
Yeah.
Just, you know, ask for feedback and and if you are a leader, give feedback as well.
41:44
So there’s a very good approach or framework that I like for feedback, which is we call, I don’t know, you probably know SPI.
So it’s situation behavior and impact.
So when you’re giving feedback, so describe exactly, you know, when the situation happened, time, place, what was the behavior that was observed?
42:04
And then when it comes to the impact, always make it about how we made you feel.
Because if you give feedback to a person saying Philippe, you are this, you are that, you’re going to be like, no, I’m not, right?
That’s going to be your first reaction.
But if I go and tell you, Philippe, when you said ABCD, you made me feel, I don’t know, unvalued, or you made me feel, you know, discouraged or whatever the, you know, the word is, then you cannot turn to me and say, no, you didn’t feel that way because, you know, it’s my feeling, right?
42:38
So you, you don’t have the authority over my feelings.
So if you give the feedback in the sense that you’re talking about how the person’s action made you feel, then you have a conversation and then things unleash from that.
But if you go and finger point you are, these you are, I mean, everybody will react.
42:56
I will do that too.
And I’ve had years of leadership training and the first thing I’m gonna say, no, I’m not.
I’m not like that, right?
Because I probably didn’t need it that way.
So feedback is an art.
Really it is an art and I love, I love, I love that, and I think even think that is a is a perfect take away.
43:14
Do you have a favorite quote that you have that sort of sums up what we’ve talked about today?
Yeah, I have a favorite quote if it sums up everything I don’t know.
About What’s your favorite quote?
Yeah, I heard that the other day.
So it really, you know, struck me and it kind of immediately became one of my favorite calls as a friend from Nigeria that that sent me that.
43:35
So the quote is you’re not late, you are on time.
The process was preparation.
Your journey doesn’t have to look like anyone else’s and often will not match the timeline that you created.
Less shame and judgement, More breath, compassion and acceptance.
43:54
Now you are ready.
Oh, I like.
That I love that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It’s really, really nice because I think sometimes we’re chasing something that we imagine that our life should be some timelines.
44:10
I should be promoted by this age, after this assignment, blah, blah, blah.
I don’t know what.
It doesn’t matter.
So the timelines are never going to match, but you are ready now.
You know the now is the now that’s.
The now and I think, oh God, I’m actually posting something on LinkedIn today, which is just some thoughts, but it’s basically around this how you know, the journey is sometimes messy, you know, it’s never linear and, you know, jump before you’re ready.
44:36
And, and I and I, I just think sometimes we have these predetermined plans in place.
Sometimes you just have to think, OK, that that can be a guide, but quite likely it’s not going to follow that.
No, I never planned to be an EPP living in Singapore.
44:54
That was in none of the career plans that I wrote.
Not because, you know, I I don’t like Asia, quite the opposite.
I’ve travelled to Asia many times.
But you know, being Brazilian, you go for the obvious, right?
If I’m going to have an international experience outside of NOAA right now, maybe I should go to Brazil or live somewhere else in Latin America because it’s closer home.
45:15
No, I ended up in Singapore and I never planned that and I love it.
The plans are good up to a certain point, so again, the flexibility is important as well.
Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to tell our listeners?
Oh, God, no.
I think you’ve asked a lot.
45:33
I think.
No, I think, I think it, you know, it’s, it’s it was a pleasure.
It was a pleasure to to have this conversation with you.
And yeah, I think we could go for another hour, but.
Fernanda, thank you for your just your energy and your optimism and your just love of life.
45:54
I just so appreciate you joining me and thank you for your time because I also, I’m aware it’s late so you need to go to bed, but.
No, thank you so much Philippa.
So I, I, I love being here.
So became a huge fan.
All the things that you write in your books.
So thanks for what you’re doing for, for leadership.
46:11
So thank you so much.
Fernanda, thank you so much.
Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Thank you.
Take care.
Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.
I hope you enjoyed listening.
Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.
46:28
If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.
We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.
46:46
Or check out my book, Return on Humanity Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.
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You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.
47:06
Get in touch and I can explain more.
A huge thanks to Bejana Viera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.
I hope we’ll meet up again soon.
