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Welcome to the show, where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.
Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.
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Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the Global North or the Global South, expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.
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Hello, I’m so excited and honored to be doing this today while it is episode #100 of the TIE Unearthed podcast.
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And today you will have something very special because as you probably have already figured out, this is not your usual host, Philippa White, this is Julianne Xavier.
I’m a personal friend and admirer of Philippa and her work.
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And to mark this crazy milestone, we thought that it would be fun to interview Philippa instead of having her interviewing someone.
So here I am.
I’m the lucky one that gets to ask the questions today.
So Philippa, welcome to your own.
1:25
Show, this is so much fun and it’s such an honor to have #100 with you Juliana.
So yay, let’s get a show on the road.
Yes.
Well, this is a full circle, right?
Because we’ve known each other for about 16 years, I think.
1:44
And I think when we met you had just to start a tie.
So we get to all of that.
But first, tell us where you are today and how are things.
I’m sitting in my office in Olinda, Brazil, where I have now been living about 20 years, which is insane because I’ve been living here longer than I’ve been living anywhere else, which is hard to believe.
2:06
I had to get my kids off to school.
They leave the house at 6:20 in the morning, get up at 5:45.
It’s so early.
So yeah, it’s done a few things already this morning and just so excited.
And I’m just, yeah, sitting here and starting my day with you.
2:24
Let’s get started because we have a lot to cover.
So you and your family are from all over the world, right?
So you were born in South Africa, You moved to Canada when you were only three and you lived in Thailand during your studies, then in the UK where you worked in advertising like me.
2:43
And finally, you moved to Brazil in 2000 and to start TIME, So you write about how much of your family has influenced you and how they all work in the helping people industries.
Your dad, Ian White, was a specialist anesthesiologist.
3:02
Was that right?
Any OR in American English anesthesiologist.
Anesthesiologist, yeah.
So I managed that.
And your uncle Neil was also a really heavy infants in your life.
He worked in a professional medicine and was Nelson Mandela’s physician during his release from prison.
3:21
In your book, you talked about how these have really influenced yourself and her career and your ideas for TIE.
But what I’m actually curious about is how did you ended up going down the business path first with such a heavy family influence around the helping people?
3:42
People in this race, Yeah, it’s a really, really good question.
I mean, at the beginning of my book, I do talk a lot about.
And actually, this articulation actually came from Michael Jagger, who we both love, who is definitely who.
Came up with this idea.
3:59
Who?
Came up with this idea he when we were on a call or perhaps even when we were in on our podcast because I did podcasts with Michael.
He said how the business world is the biggest lever you can pull to be able to make change Now back when I was however old I was in 2004 when I came up with the idea of TIE, I certainly wasn’t able to articulate it in that way then, but I did know that I didn’t want to be in an NGO.
4:32
My sister, actually, she worked with NGOs in Nepal.
She was involved with the government as well, if I’m not mistaken.
And I’m sure she’s gonna be listening to this and she’s gonna be like, you did not understand what I did, so I’m gonna get it wrong.
But anyway, she did incredible work working with the HIV and AIDS epidemic in South Africa and she did monitoring and evaluation of the antiretroviral rollout in the Western Cape of South Africa.
5:00
And but I, she worked so hard and I remember seeing her just exhausted and with limited resources and like basically trying to push a massive rock up a hill to try and kind of make this change.
And as incredible as it was, an incredibly inspirational, I felt like there’s a better way.
5:21
And then in the government world, I just have never trusted it.
It’s way too bureaucratic.
I can’t handle bureaucrats.
I can’t imagine anything worse than working in anything governmental.
So I was very clear on what I wanted for me and what I knew that I would get excited about.
5:41
And I always, you know, I loved working in advertising.
I absolutely adored the creativity.
I adored the people.
I thought I was very, very lucky to meet incredible people like you.
And I just think of the people at Leo Burnett and Darcy and BBH, you know, I got to meet some extraordinary individuals who were super smart, who were able to kind of get different concepts and make unbelievable things happen.
6:09
And I think I just thought, you know what, we need to get these individuals making the business world better.
Now, Ty has always been focused on improving the skill set of professionals in order to be able to drive a more sustainable private sector.
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That has always been the aim.
However, when I first started Tai, the way that I positioned Tai was be the change you want to see in the world.
So it was an opportunity for these business people to almost realize their purpose and do something amazing to be able to make the world a better place.
6:49
Actually on our programs, because actually all of our programs provide people with the opportunity to do an inverted commas do good, right?
So you use your skills in a different way in a completely different world, and you get to immerse yourself in a different situation and make a difference.
7:08
So it’s a way that you can be the change you want to see in the world.
Rightly or wrongly, 20 years ago, the focus kind of tended to be a little bit more on these experiences and the opportunity to be able to be that change.
Things evolved because that was always the way in which I wanted to be able to create this change in behavior and to develop these competencies.
7:32
That was always the plan.
But like with anything, you, you sort of where you actually hang your hat and where you focus evolves.
And it felt like that was the right cell at the time.
But over time, TIE has evolved how we articulate this and the focus is very much on and actually always has tried to be on the importance of developing these competencies to then make the private sector better.
7:58
And I’ve just improved the way that I articulate it through these types of conversations with Michael Jagger, which is, you know, it is the biggest lever that you can bold to be able to make change.
And therefore, we need to be able to develop the competencies of these private sector professionals in order to be able to understand how the world works outside of their silos and have those competencies to be able to create those cultures that can make business better, but also make the world better at the same time.
8:24
That’s really interesting because I think at the core of that was you were very clear about what you wanted your purpose.
And that’s the really common thread for you, you know, and, and the work you do, its purpose, knowing your purpose.
8:39
I think a lot is sad about finding our purpose.
A little bit more about your your uncle.
There is a passage in the book where you talk about how you understood that it was because of his humanity, which is the theme of the book, that he was an inspiration to so many people.
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And when you return to your job in London, it was a bit of a shock, you know, and that sort of like started helping you realize that there was a better way of doing that.
But I think one thing is finding your why or your purpose.
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How do you go from finding that, from coming up with that idea and then taking the steps and having the courage to execute it?
Because leaving by your purpose is probably a lot harder than knowing what it is, right?
9:29
And that’s very much we’ll get to that.
But I think that’s also what a lot of what TIE.
Does.
Yeah, it’s true.
It’s so interesting, right?
If you look at founders of companies and where do they start and where do they end?
Where does the company start and where does the company end?
9:44
Because it’s like, is TIE Philippa or is Philippa and TIE?
I don’t know.
It’s a really good question.
Caught you, Leanna?
Yeah, well, I remember very clearly I was working at BBH, obviously when I stopped working at BBH, then start tie.
Sir John Hagerty has always been an incredible friend and mentor.
10:02
I had lunch with him in London just a few weeks ago.
I talk about him in my book.
He’s just been a huge inspiration to me since I met him and since I worked at BBH.
And I feel very fortunate that I’ve had somebody so incredible as and inspiration.
He and although he, he talks about do interesting things and interesting things will happen to you.
10:21
That’s his mantra.
And I again, I talk about it in my book.
And he, you know, he talks about the importance of pushing yourself in different ways to be able to unleash potential and be curious and, you know, all these incredibly expand your personal circle.
It was interesting because when I was talking to him, I had quit BBH.
10:39
I had already come to Brazil, I think, to write the business model.
And anyway it was, it was a bit back and forth, as you can imagine, trying to fund something like this yourself.
I didn’t have any capital coming from anyone else.
So I was back and forth from Brazil to London trying to sort of get money and then go back.
10:56
And then there were visa issues because I could only be in Brazil for six months.
So I was here for six months.
I’d have to go back to London and work.
And then actually my dad got sick.
So I luckily I was flexible enough to be able to go back to Canada and kind of help with driving him to get his radiation therapy for he had cancer.
11:14
But during all of this, I was at this interim job that was terrible.
I can’t even remember the name of the company but.
And to be honest, going from BBH to this job was just a bit crazy.
But for me it was my dad always talked about short term goals, long term goals.
11:30
And for me this was a short term goal.
I needed to make some money, get some different experience in a different kind of area to then come back and keep on my long term goal, which was always tie.
But I remember meeting with John Hankerty again for coffee or something like that, or meeting him at his office and he’s like, So what, you’re back in London, OK.
11:49
And what, where are you working?
And I told him he’s like, wow, OK.
And it was funny because he I don’t know if he could picture really what my long term goal was because I, he tie didn’t exist at this point.
I mean, it was literally me just on this mission to make something happen.
12:05
And I remember him saying, wow, you’re really brave.
And I remember at the time saying to him and to myself, but it it seemed so obvious.
I was like, well, no, I, I don’t think that’s brave.
And I think he made a comment something about, well, it’s quite risky, but you know, well done.
12:23
You’re very brave.
And I remember saying to him, it would be more risky for me to be continuing to do something that isn’t what I should be doing.
And I, you know, I’m young enough.
I don’t have kids at this point.
12:38
I don’t have any property.
I don’t, you know, literally I’ve got nothing to lose.
Like, what do you have to lose?
You go, you do it.
If it doesn’t work out, I can get another job.
It’s more risky if I don’t do it.
And it’s so funny because I’ve always believed you have more regrets for the things that you don’t do than for the things that you do do.
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Because if it doesn’t work, there’s always a Plan B and.
It’s actually supported by research, Yeah, they’ve interviewed people in their death beds and by large, people regret the things they haven’t done.
And I’m a huge believer in jumping before you’re ready.
13:16
Back to John Haggerty again, which is hilarious.
I remember before I got pregnant and he did ask.
So at this point, Ty was working.
I’d already done to the two programs.
Actually, no, I’d done more.
So Bea was born in 2010.
So I started tying 2007 like the actual programs.
13:34
So I’d done a few programs at this point.
It’s now working.
The machine is kind of kind of ticking over.
At least I’m making money from this and not having to go back and forth, back and forth doing this freelancing.
And I remember him saying, so are you going to have kids?
13:50
And I said to him, Oh my God, John, I just don’t know how I would be able to fit that in.
Like, I don’t feel like it’s the right time.
And he said to me, Philippa, there’s never going to be the right time.
It’s never going to be the right time.
You just have to do it and you’ll figure it out.
And I remember him saying that and being like, God, you know, it’s so true.
14:09
And it’s, it’s very similar to the jump before you’re ready.
And I just feel like life is full of rules and systems and we kind of get stuck into this rhythm.
And if I reflect on why I set up tie at the end of the day, I really truly believed that it’s so important to help give professionals the permission to step out of that very monotonous rhythm of life and to be able to just snap out of that for a second.
14:42
And to give them permission to do things differently, to think differently, to jump before you’re ready, to trust your instincts, to trust your intuition and to just make amazing things happen.
And I, I don’t know why I’ve kind of always done that because I also, I remember when I was at university, I did not enjoy the Business School that I was at that much.
15:04
I mean, it was, it was looking back, it was a really, really a good experience, but I did not enjoy it.
And I signed up for this exchange program in Bangkok, Thailand.
And it was without question the best experience and the best decision that I ever made.
15:20
And I also remember somebody saying to me in the hallway before I left and she said, why are you doing this?
This is the best Business School in Canada.
It’s expensive.
You’re not going to get anywhere near the level of education in Bangkok.
15:36
Why on earth would you do this?
You’re going to lose 6 months of education at the best Business School in Canada.
And I was like literally you and I just think so differently.
You can’t learn what I’m going to learn in a classroom in Canada or from, you know, it was, it was the case study method.
15:53
So it wasn’t so much about reading it in textbook.
It was case study and it was sort of experience.
But what I was looking for was more than that.
And I it fundamentally changed my life.
And I think I was so aware of that potential then, which I was so young.
I don’t know how I knew that, but that really was also one of the puzzle pieces that helped create Tie, knowing how powerful it is to do something like that.
16:17
And again, it’s just trusting that intuition.
You know, I, I think it’s incredible how you understood all that so early on in life.
When I was at university, my last year of university, I also had the opportunity to do an exchange and I looked up and the only place I could go was Copenhagen.
16:35
And I remember thinking, I know how I’m gonna budget Copenhagen.
It’s like so small, nothing happens there.
I think maybe I would have been more excited about Bangkok or something like that, but I was a little bit like the, the person that challenged you in the whole way.
16:50
I was like, no, I wanna go to Harvard.
I wanna go to London, you know, I don’t want to go to Copenhagen.
I know I was.
I just find that so funny exactly because to everyone, Juliana’s Brazilian, so she’s having this conversation in Brazil with herself, and now she lives in Oslo, which is quite ironic.
17:11
That’s so funny.
And it’s funny because I was the only person, of course, from my university that went to Bangkok.
Everyone else went to Singapore, Hong Kong, London.
I mean, cause The thing is, is everyone that comes out of the business schools think, well, at that time anyway, they’re going to investment banking and consulting, they’re getting insane signing bonuses and they’re going to the babes, the Mckinsey’s, the Goldman Sachs.
17:34
And they were getting signing bonuses of like more money than us that I would even be making in three years and advertising, you know, but that was never ever my goal.
And I remember, I felt like, I think that’s why I didn’t like it because I was such a black sheep.
We had this HR course of one of the classes and there was this case study.
17:55
And anyway, there was this takeover and the company wasn’t performing well and, and everyone, they asked what you would do.
And so they everyone put up their hands and and they’re like, so you’ve got three options.
One is you fire everyone.
Two, you instill like leadership development stuff.
18:11
Or three, you have a conversation with everyone and understand.
I mean, I can’t, I literally can’t remember.
But anyway, fire everyone was one of the options And literally like 90% of the people in the class were like fire everyone.
And I just remember feeling like this is just not for me.
18:30
And so as a result, of course, like I didn’t go into investment banking or consulting.
I certainly did not get any kind of signing bonus.
And I went to Bangkok, Thailand, and I was one of four foreigners in the university and it was extraordinary.
It was one of the most amazing experiences to just be completely out of my depths, completely different culture standing.
18:49
I mean, I’m 6 foot one.
I stood out like a sore thumb.
So after that, and after you concluded university, you moved to London and that’s where you got your first real job.
So I’m preparing for this.
19:05
I reached out to some of our friends in common.
No way.
Yes, either people who have been a guest at this podcast or have been in a TIE placement or have worked with TIE and I asked them to share a memory of you and a question they would like to actually.
19:25
Hannah, you’re unbelievable.
So the first.
One I want to bring up is of course Chris Norman, who was your first boss in London.
So Chris said the following my first meeting with Philippa left a last impression because she was so positive, smart and focused on the task in hand.
19:44
I thought she do my job running the agency.
And here is his question, which I think if you have somewhat touched on, but maybe through his words we can get to some more specific insight.
His question is, what is your motivation to do?
20:01
Yeah, that’s such a curse question because it’s it’s so he asked that question a lot to many of his clients.
And when I when I interviewed him for the our podcast, it was a question that he said that he asked people a lot because obviously that comes back to purpose, right?
Again, I want to answer this without it being kind of the TIE answer.
20:19
It’s more Philippa like this is genuinely, why do I get so excited?
And I it’s, it’s this very visceral feeling.
I had a gap year, so I, I not a lot of people do gap years, but in Canada a lot of people do gap years.
So I, I had a break between high school and university and I traveled around Europe and actually also part of South Africa by myself.
20:44
The Europe part I did with my cousin and with a friend.
But but anyway, I lived in Oxford, England for a bit and I worked in a hotel and I remember it was the first time that I’d ever really properly been on my own and it scared me like crazy.
And I talk about this in my book, how I had to get on a bus and then I had to go to the pharmacy.
21:02
And then I was so terrified to get the bus back.
And I just left all of my things just sitting beside me on the, at the bus stop, went back to my hotel where I was working.
I was working at this hotel, the Moat house in Oxford.
And I was like, Oh my God, I left everything.
21:18
And I was but so grateful to be back.
And I was like, Oh, it was such a wasted trip.
But then I realized, well, was it a wasted trip?
It actually wasn’t because I had, I’d actually conquered something.
I’d actually managed to get the bus by myself in a completely different place.
And it was only about four or five months later that I was then travelling South Africa by myself.
21:37
Literally, I, I had my family’s houses as a base, but I, I did trips like I went to Swaziland by myself.
And so why am I saying this?
I think I’m saying it because I’ve had these experiences where pushing yourself in new ways, you, you grow and I’ve done it.
21:53
I’ve seen it because I’ve, I’ve been in Thailand, I’ve traveled around Southeast Asia as well by myself.
So I did Cambodia and Laos and, and I very easily could have lived a very sheltered kind of secure existence because I grew up with, in a really lovely family, very loving family.
22:10
But I think my parents always wanted to just push us a little bit further so that we could do things and see things differently.
So I’d grown up with that inspiration and I genuinely, when I was at BBH and I had this inspiration, you know, to do what I do, I was looking around and I saw a lot of incredibly smart people, but people who were quite safe in their bubbles and people who were very secure in their very safe, lovely situations, family situations or just life situations.
22:42
And I really saw a need to challenge that.
So why do I do what I do?
Because I genuinely get so excited after every single experience seeing that shit change in people.
22:58
It’s so it’s, it’s like a drug and it’s, it’s so incredible because you see people who have never, I mean, if it’s an immersive experience, they literally go somewhere they’ve never been before and you see that process.
I mean, sometimes there’s tears, sometimes people do cry because it is so hard, but they you see it out the other end and you see people who literally are like a flower that have just bloomed.
23:23
And to have had that impact on someone’s life is a drug.
It’s unbelievable.
And so we now do it in different ways.
But I would say after every experience, I really feel like I touched the hearts of people.
And of course it’s about changing the business.
23:39
Of course, it’s about, you know, developing the competencies, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff.
And that would be to sell any kind of PR thing.
But genuinely, to see that flicker in people’s eyes and their essence change because of an experience like this, it’s just unbelievable.
23:56
It’s invaluable, right?
It’s just unbelievable.
I love it.
I love it.
This is a perfect segue to the next one I have prepared here because I spoke to also Chris Jackson.
Oh, my God, Chris Jackson.
I believe the first ever TIE participant, right?
24:14
Yeah.
And it’s funny because, you know, you mentioned you talked about when you were starting tired.
The idea came up, you know, you had nothing to lose.
You were young and you didn’t have kids yet.
You didn’t have that or anything like that.
And in the book, you also talk about how as we grow older, you know, it’s harder to find opportunities that ignite that fire in our balleys or to push ourselves out of our comfort zone.
24:39
And through TIE, you do help people overcome that because you throw them into the situations that will get them completely out there.
So I want to share with you this memory from Chris.
So, Chris, this was. 2007, by the way.
24:54
So, I mean, this is a long time ago, Chris, is this.
Is a long.
Far, far back in his memory.
Yes, I.
Remember my first conversation with Philippe after I’ve been selected by Leo Brunetti to do the international exchange?
We touched on a couple of areas that I now realize are so fundamentally important not only to our professional development, but how we live our lives.
25:15
Dealing with ambiguity and finding the resilience and courage to embrace it.
The wonderful A nice name quote came up.
Life shrinks or expands according to one’s courage.
My TIE experience was a wonderful moment to embrace and sit in ambiguity rather than try too hard to control what I couldn’t, or try to run from it, understanding that multiple things can be true at once.
25:40
You can feel deeply uncomfortable about the ambiguity of what may happen next, but it still be confident in our ability to problem solve and make things happen.
Philip is a wonderful force of optimism that makes you feel like anything is possible.
25:58
And I remember feeling incredibly privileged that I was in her orbit and about to set out on this experience.
So yes, I mean, I totally understand why you do what you do because, you know, just hearing that, I get goosebumps.
26:15
So his question to you and I, I really like this.
What’s been the most unexpected outcome of time?
Oh, that’s such a good question.
You know what I would say, because there’s different routes that you can answer this question because for those who are listening and who don’t know where the positioning was before, it was sort of, you know, you have the NGO, you have the individual, you have the company and everything was very kind of OK, if you’re an NGO, do you want to get involved?
26:42
This is the benefit to you.
And and so it was always very difficult to, you know, hear the incredible impact to the organization.
And so, for example, having the president of Malawi involved in one of our programs, because we managed to get a group of people to help write a script like a speech for him at the High Level Dialogue Energy meeting at the UN and probably getting that all wrong.
27:10
But anyway, so that was in 2021.
And so we had a group of people who basically needed to help Malawi have a voice at that meeting.
And so it involved the president of the country, Nicola Sturgeon ended up getting involved.
You know, we had ambassadors and it was extraordinary.
27:27
And that for me showed just how how important this was because then I also had people who were involved with this project who came from the private sector, DC fund companies, investment companies, and these leaders having worked in renewable investments for so long.
27:48
And, you know, working with MIT graduates and Ivy League grads and you know, Harvard and Princeton grads who are consultants working for them.
They didn’t even know the reality on the ground in Malawi when it came to this subject matter that we were talking about, which is fuel efficient stoves and their knowledge as a result of understanding what’s happening on the ground in Malawi.
28:13
And I talk about this in my book.
So if you really want the, you know, people want to understand the details, you can read it in the book.
So I’m not going to go into tons of detail, but basically it’s about fuel and fish and stoves and, and greenhouse gas emissions and black carbon and all this kind of stuff that, you know, in the bottom billions, it’s like 3 billion people around the world.
28:32
And the way that they are cooking is impacting the global climate issue.
And they only knew this by connecting with people in Malawi and this cause and understanding what’s happening on the ground from a really grassroots point of view.
28:50
And that has shaped the way that they work in the global N working in investments.
And there are people at the high level at the UN that didn’t know this information either.
So it’s suddenly by bringing these two worlds together, you start to see things that you never saw before.
29:09
I always knew in my gut that it was really powerful to be able to bring worlds together again because I had this exchange experience in Bangkok and I did the travelling around.
So having conversations with people in Africa.
But being able to actually now start to see the impact on a global scale, the power of cross sector partnerships and bringing these different worlds together, that was amazing.
29:35
And so now moving on from that realization and seeing that power, what I never would have imagined when I started 20 years ago, I’m now talking to global innovation teams who are wanting to get involved with Ty because they recognize that we can’t innovate if we’re just always doing the same thing all the time.
29:59
And if we’re not stepping out of our silos and we’re not having conversations with different people and having those different perspectives, it fundamentally changes not only how we are as leaders, but also how we work, where our ideas come from.
For me, that’s a huge shift change to where we were looking before, back to what I was saying at the beginning from the positioning of TIE, which is be the change you want to see in the world.
30:23
It’s so much bigger than that.
We’re talking about innovation.
We’re talking about the future of companies.
We’re talking about the future of this planet.
And this is only possible if we start bringing these different voices together and these different people together.
It makes us better as people, but it it makes you more resilient as a company because your people can respond.
30:43
And that for me is amazing to see that evolution.
Ties back incredibly to whatever was extremely uncomfortable for you during school, which would have been for me as well.
The whole thing, you know, profit, profit companies are here to make money, money, money, money.
31:01
And you know, Vincent Stanley, he wrote in the foreword for your book that the core of the book is this illustration of how human resourcefulness prevails.
And I thought that was such an interesting insight because this obviously is shifting out.
31:18
But back in the days when you and I were at university and if you went to Business School, it was all about money and it was completely devoid of humanity.
But if you start to think about that isn’t any successful business.
And this going back to the inception of the a business idea really like industrial revolution time, right?
31:41
If you think about it, the conception of the business is solely the result of human resourcefulness.
It’s humans no other species in the the world would have been able to come up with the idea of a business and to make this enterprise, this concept happen.
32:00
And yet we kind of try to break away from that.
But sort of like at the core of even the possibility of their existing, the concept of a business is humanity is human beings because no one else would have been able to execute on that concept.
32:18
I was reading Frank for this and I was written the forward again and I don’t when I it’s probably the third time I read it only now I got it but.
It’s, it’s so funny because that part about resourcefulness when we were editing the book and you obviously have copy editors who go through the book and they changed that away from what he said.
32:41
They, they said it’s not very clear.
And so they changed the sentiment of what those words said.
And I read it and I’m like, that’s not right.
That’s not what he’s saying.
And it was so interesting.
We went back and forth and I said, hold on a second.
So I had to ask different people and I had to run it past another copy editor because it, it clearly wasn’t sort of getting through.
32:59
It’s so funny that you picked up on that one particular part.
The thing I find interesting about the resourcefulness as well, though, is obviously you’re Brazilian.
You know, Brazil very well, obviously don’t live there and life in Oslo is very different, but living in the northeast of Brazil particularly obviously you’re from Sao Paulo, I think so it’s, it’s a little bit different, but living in the northeast where it’s significantly poorer and therefore access to resources are significantly less.
33:27
And so, and also I guess with the work that I do, so I just, I integrate a lot with sort of people who are from very different levels and financial abilities and just the amazing resourcefulness of people here.
33:44
And again, I talk about it in my book, but it’s just, it blows my mind how no is is never really an answer.
It’s sort of OK, we’ll figure it out.
And they do in the most extraordinary ways.
And it’s a, it’s a way of seeing the world, isn’t it?
33:59
It’s a way of being able to see challenges instead of, OK, we don’t have the funds, but we’ll, we’ll figure it out.
There’s definitely a way to make this happen.
And so I know that’s a little bit different to what you’re talking about, but it, it is something that I just am constantly inspired by living here.
34:17
And I think that’s why I really love that I don’t live in the global north and that I do live in the global S because of the work that I do, because I think it’s, it really has shaped me, but it also helps me stay very true.
34:33
I think to what my why is do you know what I mean?
And, and to just constantly be inspired by these differences in how people live their lives because it’s a, it is, you know, if you’re talking about resilience, if you’re talking about being innovative, finding solutions to things, you need to be able to be resourceful in this kind of way.
34:55
Oh, that’s the source of creativity, isn’t it?
And, and it was interesting because we talk about it, Gambia in the book Gambia in Brazil.
And I always had a very negative connotation to associate it with Gambia.
And you had a much more positive take on it?
35:12
Because I know it’s so funny because Jake Dean as well, Jake Dean and Gabriella Shake Dean, for those who are listening who haven’t read the book, Shake team is sort of there’s a little way, there’s always a way around something.
Now, the negative connotation, which is the 99% of population would see that as a negative thing.
35:28
So it’s, you know, I’m going to jump ahead at a line for concert tickets and I’m going to get in front or I’m going to jump the wall so I don’t have to pay or I’m going to ride on the back of a bus, which is what a lot of people do.
So they don’t pay the bus fare.
So I mean, there’s JTUS in everything, but JTU is just finding another way around something.
35:48
And then in Gambia of course has many negative connotations, like stealing electricity from the main source and like creating a Gambia so you don’t pay electricity and have a Gambia coming to your house.
Yes, that happens a lot.
And yes, that probably would be considered maybe not a great solution if you’re wanting to be more lawful.
36:07
But there are amazing Gambiaas that you know, when I talk about the one with the saline example, but there’s so many, I mean, there’s so many gambiaas.
I have them all over my house because things break and you could just go and buy something new or you could create just a sort of Gambia that keeps that thing going for another 10 years.
36:24
Or I prefer the Gambiaha rather than throwing a whole lot of plastic in the garbage.
So.
It’s like MacGyver.
Yeah, All right.
This is going to take us back a little bit, but it also takes us forward.
And I really like the question here.
And this is coming from Ed Richards, who?
36:44
Oh my.
Gosh.
One of many participants at TIE and I didn’t realize that you and Ed were fellow grads and Leo Brunette, so this must have been before BBH.
37:00
And this is interesting because you talk about TIE coming around the time you’re at BBH, but this is his memory of you.
My lasting memory of Philippa is when she told me what her plans were for TIE.
We were grad contemporaries when we started out in advertising and I remember being in awe of her bravery and ambition.
37:20
Think I was probably worrying about some McDonald’s timing plan at the time and it made me think how small and insignificant that was in comparison to what she wanted to achieve.
I remember thinking this girl is going to go far.
It was quite a humbling moment, as was the time we won the IPA One group prize.
37:39
I remember thinking how smart everyone else was and how out of my bed I felt, so I was very grateful to have her brain on our team.
So I wonder if maybe you shared your thoughts about Ty when you had already left BBH and after little Brunette and I’m mixing up the memories here but.
37:57
So what I what where this all probably comes.
So we were grads at well, actually, to be fair, I was not a grad.
I ended up replacing a grad that had left.
So I I wasn’t part of the grad scheme.
I just luckily kind of slipped right in and everyone thought that I was a grad, but I was not a grad.
38:14
But yes, I worked on always.
He worked on McDonald’s, I think.
And it was this, like I said, I had amazing friends from my time in advertising and without question is one of them, Chris as well.
So Chris was part of that team as well.
Laura, Leroy, just so many people.
38:31
And but yeah, I would have then gone on to BBH.
We remained friends.
And when I, I would have been talking to them about it.
So he would have, he would have still been at Leo Burnett.
And I just, even though I left Leo Burnett, I was always, I was still very, very good friends with everyone and I saw them regularly.
38:49
So I just would have been talking about it and he was still there so.
His question is super interesting because his his question is thinking back to grad Felipa, even though we establish sure, we’re not the grad, but let’s just yeah.
Well, we’ll say that I’m.
Yes, and the person you were back then versus the person you are now.
39:07
How has TIE changed you?
Oh, my God, Ed, how has TIE changed me?
Yeah, you know what?
That’s a really good question, and it’s a very easy one to answer.
How funny.
I remember when I first came here, Brazil here.
And I’m sure that people would remember this from when I was in advertising.
39:26
I was very enthusiastic.
Now that’s a positive thing.
But if you are, yeah, yes.
But I remember, I’ll give you an example.
So I was sitting at a table for the Dunk evenings.
For anyone who works at BBH who remembers this, the dunk evenings are when you started working at BBH and you got together with all the top.
39:47
So Nigel Bogle, John Hagerty, everyone would be there and it would, they would do them like every six months or something.
And so all the new people coming in and you would have these dinners.
And anyway, I just so happened to be sitting in front of Nigel Bogle.
And for anyone who knows Nigel Bogle, I mean he I love him to bits now, but I was terrified of Nigel Bogle then.
40:06
And I was working on The Mail on Sunday, which was this account for this newspaper, which I would never read anyway.
Incredibly right wing, horrible.
But I was on this account and I was in front of Nigel Vogel.
And I just started working on this account.
And I remember, I remember I was like, so.
40:23
And I, oh God.
And it’s so embarrassing when I just think about it.
But anyway, I was wanting to tell him all the stats and all these amazing things that I’ve just learned and all this stuff about the Mail on Sunday and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And he literally looked at me and then what he said was, I think you just need to calm down.
40:39
That’s what he said to me.
No, genuinely, he was very say how it is.
There was no, no kind of floweriness of Nigel Bogle.
Yes, it deflated me like a balloon 100%.
But I was like this overexcited puppy dog, and when I came to Brazil, I know that people felt that too, like it was a little bit over the top and it was a bit.
41:02
So what am I saying?
I am still very enthusiastic.
How has Ty shaped me?
I would say that as a CEO of any company, you get weathered.
And so I am still very enthusiastic, but it’s very, I feel like and I hope it is, it’s much more focused.
41:20
I am optimistic and I’m very positive, but it’s a very considered optimism.
It’s a very considered positivity.
I’ve been through the ringer in so many ways from grad Philippa to now.
And I don’t see any of that as a negative thing.
41:36
I think life shapes you and I think you you become much more mature and I feel like tie through all the ups and downs.
I’m as enthusiastic as ever about what I do, thank God because I absolutely adore what I do.
41:52
But I am much more considered and I’m, I guess less of a people pleaser and more of a I’m more, I’m sort of feel like I have more direction and I’m more mature.
That’s brilliant, but I don’t you definitely did not lose the puppy.
42:08
Happy puppy.
No, I, I think it was like more of like, you know, when puppies are sort of like peeing everywhere and they’re just like, Oh my God, you can’t quite contain it.
Maybe I’m just a little bit less over enthusiastic perhaps.
But I remember hearing somewhere when someone was talking about, I’ve never had to get any external funding.
42:25
But I’m sorry, that’s a lie because Barry Cook actually did lend me and I will never forget this.
When I started out, Barry Cook was the chairman of Darcy, which then actually turned into Leo Burnett.
When I told him about my idea for Ty.
He did lend me 10,000 lbs.
42:42
So I will never forget that because that was that was the only funding that I’ve ever received externally and it was unbelievably needed at that point.
So very grateful to Barry.
But besides that, I haven’t received any funding.
But I remember hearing about funder talk that they only fund companies where the CEO has cycled, I think twice.
43:03
And what they mean by cycled is they’ve basically almost or have lost everything, come back again, lost everything again and come back again.
CEOs me to have reached rock bottom and come back up again and done that again.
43:20
For anyone to truly be like, OK, you have the resilience and the determination to make this work.
I have made it like bottom of the bottom a couple of times.
And Juliana, you’ve watched.
I mean, the pandemic was incredibly difficult.
43:36
I feel like I’ve been through a few of those cycles.
And I think it’s necessary because blind enthusiasm isn’t healthy for running a company.
You need to have gone through the tough times to have that resilience and grit and determination, but it needs to be considered and, and focused.
43:54
And I, I feel like, I, I feel like I’ve been through a lot to have that maturity.
I think so, yeah.
Hopefully with the puppy dog still, but maybe a little less peeing everywhere.
So this memory is from Santa.
Oh, Santa.
44:10
Yes, and her memory is that of when she visited EU in.
Let’s see if she must.
She must mean Olinda.
She is, in a way, a fish out of water there, a tall, blonde Canadian.
44:25
But she has this mix of extreme fearlessness, curiosity and naivete that makes that people are there for her, understand her, follow her.
She just can’t get anything done.
And she makes you feel that you yourself or yourself can do the same.
44:42
It’s just her vibe.
She’s fearless.
Also I remember first meeting her and we were both like verbal tractors, talking over each other, laughing, hugging.
She has total vulnerability, but she’s so freaking strong at the same time.
45:00
Wow Santa.
Oh my God, this is like this is the coolest 100 episode of all time.
Oh my God.
Remember us being verbal tractors over each other when we first met as well?
And but it’s like this naivete, which makes me think about the puppy.
45:21
But just being unstoppable requires another level.
You know, resilience requires maturity, right?
Because otherwise you just burn yourself out.
You’re just run yourself into the wall.
But I think, you know, Santa has a really good question at this point, which is what needs to happen for you to look back and think I did it, Yeah.
45:46
That’s a crazy question.
I’m like covered in Goosebumps.
I it’s so funny because I talk about it in my book, like what is success, right?
What is success?
And for me, it’s never been being a billionaire money, all that kind of stuff.
Like, of course, just that time during the pandemic and having to sort of reshift where we were was really quite traumatic, I’ll be honest, because I’m the sole breadwinner and I’ve got two kids and it’s just, it’s been pretty tough.
46:11
And also just having to shift change tie.
So, you know, of course financial stability is super, super, super important for any business.
But it’s such a it’s such a loaded question, isn’t it?
Because of, you know, when do you say, wow, look what I’ve done.
And I, I think I need to give myself time to, I mean, actually this is doing that.
46:30
I mean, I have to say these questions and the fact that you’ve pulled all these people, it’s like, I feel like it’s a wedding or something because I, you know, like I just, I never had that.
Like I’ve never had, I had this.
So it’s just really, it’s like, Oh my God, all these people that I didn’t ask for a testimonial and they’re like saying stuff, maybe this is it.
46:46
But it’s, yeah, I don’t know.
That’s a really good question.
I, I don’t know.
I’m very, very, very proud of where things have got to.
I feel super excited about the future because again, the repositioning of everything of where we were and where we are and where we’re going.
47:06
I have big plans.
Maybe this is my problem because I, I have big plans, I’ve got big manifestation plans and I see sort of 5-10 years in ahead and I, I’m excited and, and that’s what sort of it’s again, short term goals, long term goals.
47:22
So maybe, but at the same time, I don’t want to just constantly be chasing that next thing and not reflect on where I’ve got to and be really happy with that.
So it’s a very good question, Santa.
Maybe I need to do some soul searching and just have a little bit of my own medicine and drink a little bit of my kool-aid and be like what a success I am.
47:43
Definitely, I definitely, definitely feel very proud that I have managed to weather the storm of the pandemic.
We are in a very, very good position now.
Things are in a, you know, going in the right direction and I’m starting to kind of take a bit of a deep breath.
48:01
Yeah, Yeah.
That was a deep question.
Yeah, difficult to to answer.
To round up, I think we have a really nice closing here from our dear friend Michael Jagger.
Of course, of course he was, I mean, so generous sharing his thoughts as well.
48:23
We talked a little bit about this as well.
He was very excited about this episode and I’m going to read to you his memory and then his question.
And I think this is a good way to start wrapping up.
When you put sand or salt on a flat plated surface and place it on a sound source, a speaker with music playing or a natural habitat of water or winged vibrations, beautiful dynamic patterns and forms emerge and flow.
48:53
In my first conversations with Philippa and her energy, curiosity, optimism, questioning, bullying, rhythm of listening, yes and and artistry of human interaction, I reflected on the wavelength patterns that I knew were present even in virtual engagement.
49:11
I saw flowers, constellations, kinetic living, harmony, perfectly balanced, being interested and being interesting.
Even now when I think of time with Philippe and my memory wonders what flower of the universe will emerge and I smile knowing it will be meaningful and beautiful.
49:30
So I really like this visual expression from Michael because this sums up how I see you.
We started talking about sometimes difficult to separate, you know, the person from the enterprise.
And when you think about what you’re trying to do with Tai and the stars you shared in your book Return on Humanity, it is this beautiful synergy of nature.
49:58
When you know things come together, when people experience different habitats and different experiences, how that opens up their world to something bigger.
It’s like this constellation, you know, it’s this is like living harmony.
50:15
That’s as what we’re meant to do.
So Michael’s question is not easier than sent us.
And it’s the following.
If Philippa were to pass from this life in time and space into another, and she could be reimagined as a person or thing, what do you believe you would become?
50:33
Oh.
My God, he’s so creative.
Oh my God.
Could be a thing as well.
You know what?
Yeah, exactly.
I am going to answer it in as equally metaphorical kind of way.
50:50
And I would like to think that this essence that I have access to through experience is an element of intuition.
And intuition is your, it’s your gateway to your unconscious mind.
51:10
So your unconscious mind, there are ways to get at it.
And intuition is one of them.
And therefore that’s why you know, you really want to try and tap into your intuition as much as possible in various different ways to be able to kind of unlock that.
I feel like I’ve fed my intuition and I’ve had this sort of access to my intuition in a, in a way that I, I still don’t even understand what that is, but it’s, it’s very powerful and it’s something that really guides me.
51:35
And I think it’s spiritual.
I don’t know what it is, but there’s sort of that essence that sort of flows in the sort of winds of positivity of hope of insights.
And it’s sort of these winds that sort of come and I just, it’s this flow and I just, I follow that and that’s what’s driven my life.
51:52
And if I was to come back as something, it would be that for people, it would be these winds of hope and optimism and intuition and blowing to people and being able to guide people because that’s what I do with my work.
52:11
And it’s on this planet in this way.
But if I pass to a different planet then it would come in that kind of spiritual form I think.
I love that because I agree that’s exactly what to do for for Ty and.
I think that that’s what makes me me and that’s like, and I don’t know where this has come from.
52:29
And I think intuition and, and how you drive your life comes from lived experiences.
A lot of it is, which is why I do that for people.
But I was very lucky at a young age to have them.
And I guess just be open to them.
Why I’m open to it, I have no idea.
I don’t know where that all comes from.
52:45
No idea.
But, and again, I’m not religious, but I do tap into this spirituality, whatever it is.
I don’t practice anything.
I don’t go anywhere to that.
It’s just sort of within me.
But.
I don’t know if I told you this, and maybe it’s not related to this, but I think it is.
53:00
But at the the book launch event in London, Santa and I had the opportunity to talk to your mother.
Oh, your mom?
Yes.
And I asked your mom, what does it take to raise a Filippo?
Oh wow, really?
Yes, and I was trying to remember the answer.
53:18
I sent a message to Census like you.
Remember.
What was the answer?
And then we concluded that the center of what she said was that you just need to allow them to be who they are meant to be.
You just need to give the space for them to grow up and fulfill their life’s purpose.
53:39
So I think that’s the source.
It is the source.
And, you know, I just had my mom visiting now and it, it was unbelievably amazing.
I, it’s funny, I, I made a point of carving out two weeks that she was here and just really decreasing the amount of work that I was going to do and just enjoy her.
53:56
And it’s so true.
A lot of it.
I mean, it’s true.
She she’s an incredible woman.
So are you.
Thank you for being in this world, for doing the work you do, for being such a great friend.
I hope this was fun.
Juliana, thank you for providing me with the opportunity to just open my heart in this way and to share these really deep stories of what TIE is all about.
54:23
It’s so funny.
It’s not I’m a big believer in signs and I don’t know if the microphone is picking this up, but it’s, it’s possible that it is.
But there’s suddenly a whole load of school kids that are just walking past my house and it’s getting very, very noisy.
And I, I’m actually quite happy that that’s in the background because I just feel like this is like the next generation that’s coming.
54:45
And, you know, it’s all about people, what I do.
It’s just all about people and bringing different people together and creating better, more human environments, but also better, more human world for this, you know, next generation.
And you are a huge believer in all of this too.
55:04
And it’s shaped a big part of your mission and life and everything.
And I just so appreciate our times together and thank you for this being possible.
But thank you for all you do as well.
So.
Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.
55:21
I hope you enjoyed listening.
Now this is your chance to get involved with Ty.
If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world, that’s just what we do by helping leaders tap into their greatest asset, their humanity.
We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people, from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.
55:44
Or check out my book, Return on Humanity Leadership Lessons from All Corners of the World.
You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the forefront of competition.
You can find all the information you need on all of this at tieleadership.com.
56:04
Get in touch and I can explain more.
A huge thanks to Beja Naviera for Co producing this with me and for creating the music.
I hope we’ll meet up again soon.
