0:03
Welcome to the show where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses
of various industries, cultures and backgrounds.
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Our guests are disruptors, united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life.
Whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the global North or the global S,
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expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed.
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What happens when someone deeply committed to democracy, both at home and abroad, steps into the
political arena?
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And what do they learn about power, accountability, and the urgent threats facing our systems today?
Hello and welcome to episode 106 of TIE Unearthed.
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Today I speak with my long time friend Christina Hartman, a woman who has dedicated her career to
protecting and promoting democracy.
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From working in International Development with organizations like Freedom House and the National
Democratic Institute, to running for U.S.
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Congress in 2016 and for Pennsylvania Auditor General in 2020, Christina has seen first hand how
systems of power are built, challenged, and then sometimes dismantled.
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She’s raised millions for nonprofits like the Joyful Heart Foundation, LED her own political
campaigns, and helped shape global human rights efforts.
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With deep experience in relationships across local, state, national, and international levels,
Christina has a proven track record of bringing together American International government, civil
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society, labor, business, and other stakeholders to drive meaningful change.
And today, she warns that one of the world’s largest democracies is under threat.
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In this episode, Christina and I explore her fascinating career and what it taught her about
leadership and resilience.
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We dig into her experiences running for office, the rise of authoritarianism, the parallels between
the US and Brazil, and the consequences of America.
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Stepping back from the global stage, Christina also unpacks why so many voters are feeling
disillusioned and why civic engagement is now more critical than ever before.
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This is a powerful conversation about leadership, accountability, and the future of our
institutions, so let’s get into it.
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Christina, thank you so much for joining me on Tie ON Earth.
You are such an old friend and I just am so, so honored to have you with all of us.
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So thanks for joining.
Well, thank you so much for having me.
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It’s such a pleasure to be here.
And we go back a while to the beginning of TIE actually so.
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To the beginning of tie it is.
I mean, I just think of our lunches in New York City, sitting at a canteen or something and just in
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a booth.
I mean that was.
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Probably too 7.
Yeah, I mean, definitely when we met up in London, it was 2007 because that’s when I or 2008 in
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So New York would have been around 10 as well.
Long, long time ago.
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So Christina, tell me, where are you?
Because I love the fact that I just speak to people all over the world.
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So where are you sitting right now?
Well, I happen to be sitting in the southwest of England in a place called Buvy Tracy, which sits on
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the river Buvy, after which it is named.
It’s a town near Exeter, the area where my husband is from.
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So we split our time.
Well, I split my time between here and Philadelphia in the US.
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Very.
Cool, next time I’m back in the UK and if our dates actually align, I’m looking for good to see you
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there, which will be really nice.
We haven’t managed to make it work yet, but that would be amazing.
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Christina, I’ve always been so inspired by you and your work, particularly now at this moment.
I couldn’t have thought of a better person to speak to.
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And of course, you got my e-mail reaching out not that long ago.
Be like, I think we need to have this podcast, but so that our listeners can understand why I was so
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keen to talk to you, perhaps before we get into all the work stuff and the heavy kind of political
stuff.
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Tell us your story.
My story is that I grew up in like, Pennsylvania, in the town that was known for building community,
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and then I went out into the world and I did that right.
So I went to get a degree in international affairs, the very kind of degree that’s really needed
5:01
these days, although some people would like to not admit that.
I was lucky enough to be able to work with USAID implementing partners.
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So it’s the Agency for International Development in the United States.
I worked for their implementing partners, including Freedom House and the National Democratic
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Institute.
So doing democracy work all over the world.
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Did that for about not quite 15 years and, you know, decided to focus on domestic issues because I
could see what was coming down the Pike, that things were not headed in a positive direction.
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So that was in around 2011, 2012, got a job doing work as a director of development for an
organization that supports survivors of domestic violence, sexual assault, and child abuse.
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And then really still felt like I wasn’t making the contribution that I probably could and should
and decided to run for Congress in 2016 in what was then Pennsylvania’s 16th districts.
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And since then, I’ve done this mattering of things, including running for other offices, consulting.
So I do business development or nonprofits in a variety of ways, including strategic planning.
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And then also did a stint for a startup out in California for a few years to try to make the most of
some of the American Rescue Plan dollars that Biden had gotten out to lots of different cities to
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help increase diversity, equity and inclusion in the tech sector.
Always trying to empower people around the world, whether it’s in my own country or elsewhere, to do
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what they’re best at and to help make change.
The.
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UK connection, just to sort of put a personal slant on all of this.
Yeah, my husband is British and we met in Serbia when I was working there and he was at a political
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conference.
And we’ve been together for, yeah, for like 20 years now, which is a little crazy.
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I’m really lucky to have this sort of bicoastal life, bicoastal in a very different way to most
Americans.
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But also really glad because having spent a lot of time in Europe when I was in high school, I knew
that, you know, I just have a deep connection to like, France and MyHeritage is European.
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And so being able to be here in the UK has always been a great thing for me in terms of making that
connection.
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Of course, until Brexit, which also links up with our conversation today.
And then So, you know, my husband and I always, we’re people who speak a couple languages.
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We’re people who really are interested in politics.
My husband’s has won a local council race here and is running for another race that’s in May.
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So, you know, we’re both just politically active people who believe in government and believe that
it can do good for people and that we want to be a part of that and be a part of making it better,
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right?
So that it really responds as Secretary Madeleine Aubrey or Ambassador Secretary Madeleine Aubrey
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used to say, making sure that democracy delivers, right?
So the reason that people are so unhappy right now, one of the many reasons is that democracy has
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not delivered for them, or at least they don’t feel like it has.
And so that’s part of why we are here.
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So I’m glad to be married to a person who believes in the same things that I do.
Yeah, right.
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And I mean, it’s fascinating because you you both do it on on both sides of the of the ocean.
So, so many different perspectives, which is incredible.
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So talk to us about your work in politics and also just International Development.
And obviously that’s a loaded question and you can take that wherever you want, but I think it would
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just be really interesting to get and you touched on it obviously in your as you introduced
yourself, but perhaps you can help us just understand that context.
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My work in International Development again was for Freedom House and the National Democratic
Institute, which are seen as democracy and human rights organizations.
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Freedom House more on the human rights and civil political liberty side of things, NDI more on the
elections and political processing side of things, but still all in the same bucket of democracy and
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governance.
I worked in Central Asia and in sub-Saharan Africa and a little bit in former Yugoslavia and the
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Middle East.
And so it’s always working with individuals or nonprofit organizations to provide them with the
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support that they needed to advocate for their needs to government right.
So helping them to organize or get the money that they needed to hold events and do activities to
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get the word out about variety of things.
And so in Uzbekistan, that was working with human rights defenders who had many of them personally
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experienced or their personally experienced being unjustly imprisoned.
For example, Americans are starting to begin to understand what unjust imprisonment is with a number
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of the folks that have recently been unjustly imprisoned in the past two weeks in the United States,
as well as those who have been taken from the United States.
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The Venezuelans who may have been in the United States legally but were deported illegally to El
Salvador.
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So we would have helped cases like that in Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan.
In my work in sub-Saharan Africa, I did work with youth leaders.
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So looking for the next generation of leaders and talent.
A sense it’s like a bit like recruiting, which is something I do as a consultant, right?
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Looking for those folks.
And I do it in politics as well.
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So really trying to tap into who are the real leaders who don’t see themselves as leaders.
We worked really hard to scour the continent because as you know, in International Development
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programs, there’s often like what I call the usual suspects of the same people keep cycling through
a lot of different programs or exchanges and whatnot.
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And so this was really about finding different folks.
That program eventually became a flagship program under the Obama administration.
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And then my last program in Africa was Sudan in South Sudan when Sudan was 1 country.
So I oversaw a $40 million program over three years when it went from 1 country to two countries.
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And obviously, as we know now, most of the things in Sudan are back to being similar to how they
were back in 2006, for example, when let’s call it the north and the South, right?
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So the northern part of Sudan, Khartoum is in the southern part of Sudan were fighting between each
other, but then also on the border of Darfur, right between the Chadian border.
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And so you had a situation that was on fire back not quite 20 years ago, but almost in the situation
there is pretty much the same now for a variety of reasons.
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So that’s, I would say, my International Development career in a.
Nutshell, do you want to just in a nutshell, just explain your political work?
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Because I find it really interesting that you also then ran for Congress.
So you have this international social development understanding in countries and democracies or
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dictatorships that you might not have experienced in the US And so you you have that experience in
other countries, but then you brought a lot of those learnings and ran for Congress perhaps just
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very quickly just bring that to life so we can.
Understand.
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Yeah, sure, sure.
So lots of people run for office.
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And I think most people, maybe not all, but a lot of people definitely come to that.
There’s like a light bulb moment.
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Here’s what I need to do.
I need to run for office.
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So I think part of it can be attributed to me having run a marathon because they say that after you
run a marathon, you have an epiphany.
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That 100% happened to me.
I think that I just was really, really frustrated with how things were going in the United States.
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I had felt that way for a long time, right?
So I went to George Washington University with my freshman dorm was four blocks from the White
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House.
Everybody that I knew in college as I was growing up in university was, you know, working at the
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White House or at the Hill or where have you?
And it was just so clear to me that while they wanted us to obviously do the current work, they
12:05
didn’t necessarily want us to be take our suggestions or be a part of the process.
And it just felt like it was Band-Aid upon Band-Aid.
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And you could see even in that.
And then in 1995 what the Republicans were trying to do.
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And by the way, then I was an independent, right?
Like I came out of the place which was staunchly anti political.
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My parents were always like people for the best person, parties are not as important as the person
and the job they’re going to do and blah, blah, blah.
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So anyway, I came to DC and could just see like what the Republicans were up to.
So I land myself with the Democratic Party then, but I didn’t do anything for the Democrats.
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In fact, there were many elections when I probably didn’t even vote.
Right, because in DC you don’t really have a voice.
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All this to say that in 2012, I could see what was happening around the country.
So Planned Parenthood was being attacked for the umpteenth time.
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I started researching the person that represented the Congressional District where I grew up.
He had been an incumbent for 19 years and was there collecting a paycheck and wasn’t doing anything
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and by the way, collecting 2 pensions because he had been a teacher for the state.
And then he went to the House of Representatives and so just felt really something that needed to be
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done.
And I was enough is enough.
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I just can’t sit here and let this person represent my community.
So by the time I got to starting to crunch the numbers in 2014, I was sure that people were not
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crunching the numbers correctly because what I could see was a place in in my town.
So Lancaster, PA was changing.
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So I used to joke that the number of coffee shops in yoga studios kept expanding.
And where there’s coffee and or yoga, there’s Democrats.
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The city had changed a lot since I had been there in high school.
The city was fully democratic and I knew that the, I grew up in a suburb outside of the city and I
13:38
just, the people that I grew up with are not for these kinds of policies in this way of thinking.
These are people who believe in public schools and believe in public libraries.
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Maybe they voted for Reagan and all the rest, but they are firmly interested in government providing
public services that serve a public good.
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And so it’s with that that I, I’m going to run for this office and see what happens.
I think these numbers are wrong.
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I think no one’s looked at them for a long time because they think that they’re just in super red
territory, which to be fair, they are.
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But let’s look at them again.
Let’s look at what’s changed.
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And that’s how I became a national red to blue candidate in 2016, by convincing everybody at the
national level that this race was winnable.
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I just felt that was really, really important for our listeners to listen to this because one, I’ve
got a friend who’s an MP here as well and he is a firm believer that if you don’t like the way that
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things are running, everybody should run for office is actually his belief.
You know, don’t complain about things.
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Yes, voting is one thing, but you can be a part of the change and not forever.
You don’t need to be a career politician, but go in and do what needs to be done to be able to be
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that change.
And I just think it’s really interesting because you know, one, your understanding of the system and
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two, just your passion, I just think is so important to listen to right now.
What are you doing now before we start getting into all the questions that I have about politics and
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what’s what is happening in the US from your point of view, but what are you doing now?
Hey.
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We’re talking about what I was doing 3 months ago, I said.
Three months ago.
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I was a consultant mostly for USAID and USDA clients.
So my friend Derek founded this consulting firm and me and a few other people, 30 other people up
15:06
until three months ago supported him.
And so most of our clients were again, USAID or USDA.
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And we did strategic planning, recruitment and fundraising support, program management support for
those clients.
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And now we’re down to three people because of what has happened in the government.
And so our firm has been annihilated because our clients and the institutions that we work with have
15:29
been annihilated.
And so I am currently one Canadian client and one American client that doesn’t have any
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international scope.
So that’s where we stand right now.
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Telling, quite telling of where we’re at.
So which is a nice.
15:43
Segue, whatever.
What we’re going to be talking about exactly.
15:47
So given the political climate and potential challenges ahead, what do you see as the most urgent
threats to US democracy?
15:58
And do you believe there is a way to mitigate the damage that we’re facing?
I’m gonna punt and suggest that everybody read the Atlantic article that was just published today or
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their magazine for April because they point out that it’s probably too late.
Umm, or it’s much later along in the timeline.
16:18
I am somewhat of a mini expert in dictatorship, so I’m not gonna an Applebaum expert, but I am a
person that has worked in them, knows them, has studied them and understands them quite well.
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So I’m the continuum of where we are in our journey to authoritarianism.
We’re quite far down the path because the way that all of this works is that it is people use that
16:38
expression of boiling a fraud.
But you turn up the heat on something.
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So you put somebody into, you know, lukewarm water and it feels good.
And then you kind of turn up the heat into the point where the water is boiling and you didn’t
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notice.
And that’s the situation that we’re in.
16:50
So these things have been happening for a while now.
The dismantling of public school education has been happening since I was in high school, at least
16:59
by creating public school voucher programs and, you know, other, there are ways of doing things like
giving state dollars to private schools, all sorts of things.
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So we’ve been dismantling our public education system.
We removed civic education for most of our programs across the United States ages ago.
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I mean, even me growing up, I didn’t really have a really good education on how a bill becomes a law
or something like that is very minimal.
17:24
And so you start with those types of things.
And so in that sense, it’s been going on forever.
17:29
And then recognizing that Project 2025 came out last summer, maybe before that, you described
everything that was going to be done.
17:35
And they’re doing every single thing.
And these are just classic dictator moves.
17:39
So they’re classic authoritarian regime moves.
And with the new magazine, Atlantic points out for the April edition is just, and this is from an
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apple bomb.
So she’s describing how Hungary can be, how people can use Hungary as the example to understand the
17:52
direction that the United States is likely to go in if we can’t pull the brakes on.
So that was the second part of your question, which is how do we put the brakes on this?
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Well, first, we need everybody out in the streets on April 5th and making sure that we are loud and
that people understand that we’re upset.
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It takes lots of folks like me.
So I am doing some work right now, but it’s paid.
18:14
But then I’m also doing a lot of volunteering for what I’m just referring to as the resistance.
So people who are working towards making sure that we’re taking care of people who have been harmed
18:24
by the government and need assistance in some way, be that legal, financial or other, and making
sure that those who haven’t been harmed yet, but we can guess that they will be, are prepared for
18:34
what’s coming inside the government.
And to make sure that all these indivisible groups and others that were created as a result of the
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2016 election and Trump won, that those are activated.
And they’re all getting resistance training and understand how to communicate with people and how to
18:49
get the word out, you know, but that’s not enough.
So we can see that the media is doing a great job.
18:53
I mean, I think that the media is doing maybe great.
It’s too strong.
18:55
But I feel like they’re doing a good job of telling the story of what’s happening with the US
government.
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The problem is, is that per usual, and This is why we’re in the situation, is that only people, me,
are listening to that media.
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And So what is the rest of the country listening to?
And does the rest of the country know that we have a problem here?
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What I don’t know yet, although I do keep asking people that are in the middle of the country, what
are they hearing?
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What are they seeing?
Where is the understanding from the regular population and understanding also that there’s a lot
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going on.
So good signs are that Republicans are showing up at Republican town halls and telling them that
19:29
they’re not OK with how things are going.
But in the meantime, the barrage of things continues, and all of them are right out of the dictator,
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what I call the Dictator Handbook.
I don’t think there’s an actual dictator handbook, but for 20 years, one of my special skills is to
19:43
see patterns.
So they all use the same method.
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And so Trump’s just following that dictator handbook.
And the shocking part is that Elon is just doing whatever he wants, giving $1,000,000 to people
19:54
buying their vote.
Trump is doing what exactly what he did in his company, which is to just do whatever he wants and
20:00
then see how it plays out in the court of law and hope that he gets lucky.
At the end of the day, we’re taking away rights from millions of Americans and we’re destroying our
20:09
democracy.
Great segue to the next question that I have, which is around Donald Trump, because as an outsider,
20:15
I just see this train wreck kind of happening.
But it’s quite extraordinary how this is how he’s always worked.
20:24
You know, you’ve been based in New York City.
You have obviously been very familiar with the way that he has worked over the years.
20:34
Can you just help us understand because you, you touched on it, but I just think it’s really
interesting.
20:38
I didn’t know that that’s actually that’s his strategy.
What is his strategy just in how he’s run his businesses?
20:43
Anybody who’s worked or a narcissist or an abuser can tell you that chaos is king.
So keep them guessing.
20:50
And you know, I listen to my Dirty Pleasures True Friend podcast and I’m always struck by the
similarities between abusive spouses and our president.
21:00
Again, it’s no surprise to me having worked for dementia, violence, sexual assault organization, but
or if you’ve ever had an abusive boss or worked in a really toxic work environment.
21:08
And so it’s just this what I want when I want it, very chaotic, very unhealthy.
I decide, again, not just when I want it, but I’m the decider of what we do and only my preferences
21:20
matter.
We see all of those things.
21:22
And then this.
My understanding is that Roy Cohn, his lawyer, taught him to just sue, sue, sue or do what you want
21:28
and then have him sue you and then counter sue and just keep playing it in the courts.
You know, he’s just not afraid of the court system and he’ll go around it or doesn’t.
21:35
He knows.
That you can just delay it and who cares and just do whatever you want.
21:39
And so and then in the meantime, you don’t have to obey the law, so to speak, because if it’s been
ruled in your favor, then you’re doing what you’re supposed to do.
21:46
And only until the other suit comes back through and countersuit, you know, countersuits and it can
be a never ending process.
21:51
You know, even with the doge stuff, I mean, people are like, oh, it’s so great.
You know, some of the USAD money is coming back online and I’m like, great.
21:57
But in the meantime, you dismantled completely and totally dismantled an institution and the 30
businesses, 30 odd businesses or 100 businesses or however many businesses that is that are in its
22:09
orbit.
So you don’t just build those back up tomorrow.
22:12
You don’t just get to hire those people back on.
And let’s be clear, none of us is taking into account the human toll.
22:19
So in terms of, you know, linking it back to the work that you’ve done, Philippi, in terms of return
on humanity, there is 0 humanity in any of this.
22:27
The cruelty is the point.
And we are not considering people’s feelings or children or hopes or dreams or anything.
22:35
This is just wow.
Good luck to you and.
22:38
Then obviously, we’re not even considering the ramifications of what happens when all of that money
has been pulled.
22:46
And that’s actually the next question that I have, because obviously on this side of the equation in
the US and then, you know, you’ve got the businesses, you’ve got the people’s livelihoods, you’ve
22:56
got, I mean, there’s just so much there.
But you know, the US has historically held this oversized role in global institutions, but these
23:05
recent decisions have sort of eroded that influence.
What do you see as the long term consequences of this retreat from the world stage?
23:15
When we talked about it the other day, I had not thought about it from this point of view because
obviously cutting funding in Uganda for the Ebola crisis, it’s obvious what the ramifications will
23:27
be of that.
Likewise, HIV, so many issues that obviously can then very quickly not only impact those regions,
23:35
but then very quickly we’ve already been through a pandemic and spiral to impact other people.
So that sort of feels a little bit obvious and terrifying.
23:43
But specifically, what is going to be the outcome on the US and the world from the cancelling of
this US foreign aid?
23:50
So let’s talk about the impact of the US by pulling out of international institutions, we
interestingly, we are ceding power.
23:59
So this is a very interesting concept to me.
And also again, to quote Secretary Madeleine Albright, because that’s what I like to do, she would
24:07
explain foreign policy as a toolbox, right?
And you have tools in your toolbox that you want to use at different times.
24:12
And USA idea is what most of us in the industry would refer to as soft power, like a carrot.
You use this to earn people’s trust and goodwill and things like this.
24:21
And and there’s hard power, which is, you know, what we did in Yemen, right, dropping bombs.
And the US has many different tools, but basically Trump is canceling all of the soft tools.
24:31
So we had Voice of America, which was cancelled.
We had USAID cancelled, USIP cancelled.
24:37
All of these are destroyed, obliterated, gotten rid of, and we’re only left with hard power, which
is fascinating because, I mean, thank you.
24:43
And I talked about this last time, but that’s like saying that I only need a hammer in my toolbox
and every job that I have in my home I can do with a hammer.
24:53
Which if I said that to you, and I’m no home improvement expert, all I know is that I own my own
home and I sometimes hang photos in a wall.
25:00
And I can tell you that a hammer is not always the tool that you need.
In fact, a hammer can often do a lot of damage in a way that you don’t want it to if you’re not
25:09
careful or if your drywall isn’t great, which sometimes mine isn’t.
And so this is very analogous to what’s happening in the world.
25:16
So we’ve decided that the only thing we care about is having a hammer.
You know, only is hard power.
25:21
But you can see it even in these conversations over Signal about the Jeff Goldberg Atlantic scandal
from the other day.
25:27
And so they only want one tool.
It’s either you’re going to put up or shut up.
25:31
You’re going to do what we say and we’ve got a gun to your head or we’re not playing like as in
you’re either dying or going to do what we say.
25:37
I mean, it’s basically like a hold up.
Like we are now the terrorists in a sense, this is terroristic behavior.
25:43
I mean, they think of it as tit for tat, right?
So they’re like, well, we’re going to do something for you and in return you need to do something.
25:49
But there are plenty of countries from whom I don’t know that we don’t really want that much or
that, you know, maybe we don’t see as valuable in that way or that people find it insulting to be
25:58
approached in that manner, right?
We’re not accounting for any humanness.
26:02
So I think going back to that humanity piece is always important because this is a parent that only
hits their child.
26:07
They’re never trying to say, if you do this, then maybe I could do this for you.
Or this is, oh, we’re just going to snap you all the time.
26:14
There’s no other solution to our problem other than to hit you.
And so maybe in this short run, you scare a lot of people, but in the long run, we just know that
26:23
both throughout history, throughout parenting, throughout DIY, we know that it doesn’t end well when
you only have one tool in your tool.
26:32
We know of it.
From the point of view of seating power, which was something that I found fascinating when we were
26:37
talking.
And like I say, I had not thought about that and how you explained it was really interesting just
26:44
about the US took up a lot of space internationally in a lot of discussions in a lot of regions,
territories, conversations, organizations.
26:56
Now they’ve all left and what is the ramification of that?
Just so that we all understand what seating power means.
27:04
So the irony here is that Trump thinks that we’re not powerful enough within these organizations.
If you would ask anybody in those organizations, you would know that nothing happened without the
27:12
Americans there.
Literally nothing.
27:14
And sometimes that was monetarily unless we showed up.
And that’s what, you know, Trump claims he’s not about.
27:19
I don’t think that’s entirely what it’s not about.
But sure, if we didn’t pay the bills, then it wouldn’t get done.
27:23
But a lot of it was because we were paying the bills.
So we felt we had a lot to say about it.
27:27
But when you leave a space that you want somewhat controlled with money or your voice or your power,
however you want to, depending on the circumstance, however we were wielding our weight and wielding
27:38
our tools, we’ve now left the space.
And whenever you leave a space, there’s a vacuum.
27:43
And the question is, who’s going to fill the vacuum?
And the answer is Russia and China.
27:47
And that has been the case again since I was in school in 1995.
Like you’re coming up on 30 years, so none of this being new.
27:58
And so 30 years, we’ve been talking about Russia and China filling that space.
And we know for a fact that Russia and China do not care anything about human rights, democracy or
28:09
freedom.
We know that they will jail people without regard to anything.
28:13
The Chinese care a bit more about money than the Russians just because Russia doesn’t really have
any.
28:19
But it’s really not, in my opinion, who you want among your friends.
You want people who have your same values.
28:26
And so, you know, we used to think that American values were based on democracy and freedom, and now
we’re saying that we don’t want to be friends with any of our fellow democracies again, when you’re
28:35
not in those rooms and someone else fills that space, and then guess what happens?
Those people will then offer money.
28:40
China will offer money.
They have been with Africans for again for two decades, the Chinese have been in Africa offering the
28:47
Africans money to build roads to to build rail, to build whatever.
And the African countries say yes.
28:52
And because they are being offered this money, they feel like they need to do something in return.
So they vote with China on things at the UN, right?
28:59
They side with China.
It’s how politics and international politics works, right?
29:04
I don’t quite frankly think it’s, I think politics is politics.
But just to say that he’s not playing it very well.
29:11
The only thing here is that you can think that the end game is for him to be in charge of the world
for world domination with Russia and or that he’s a Russian asset and he’s just doing whatever
29:23
And that’s obviously the big question mark that I think we’re all wanting to understand better.
So one thing I do find interesting just because obviously I’m based in Brazil, we’ve been through
29:34
the Lula and and Bolsonaro elections.
We’ve had Bolsonaro in power.
29:40
We managed to avoid him being in power again and we currently have Lula.
But it’s really interesting, sort of specifically related to the PT, which is the party Lula.
29:49
The question is, how did the US get into this situation?
And when I reflect on the and it’s, it’s so complex, but it’s almost like the PT party and also the
30:01
people who support the party, There’s an element of we know better.
We are the sort of owners of the truth.
30:09
We were the enlightened ones.
And anyone who doesn’t vote for the PT is sort of evil, supports dictatorship, stupid.
30:20
And I don’t know actually if the PT really truly have sort of gone out onto the streets and truly
understand why people continue to support actively Bolsonaro.
30:33
And I would not say that everyone who supports Bolsonaro is some evil person who supports
dictatorships.
30:42
Many very nuanced reasons why they actively support Bolsonaro.
And you have the polarization, which of course we’re all familiar with it.
30:51
We’ve got Brexit, we’ve got, you know, the US, we’ve got, you know what’s happening in Brazil as
well.
30:56
But I’m just wondering, we’ve had where you had Trump already as a president.
We knew what he stood for, but yet he managed to get in again.
31:05
Do you see parallels with this mentality?
Like, it’s hard to understand how Trump got in.
31:14
And OK, we could say that it’s algorithms.
We could say that it’s a lot of brainwashing, but there are still a lot of people on the ground who
31:21
are very much in support.
Are the Democrats just perhaps?
31:26
Out of touch.
Possible that the Democrats are partially out of touch.
31:30
And I’ll say something that kind of scared me during the Biden Harris campaign.
I went to a number of rallies and every time I was really pleased with the messaging.
31:40
And I’m always concerned because of the messaging is resonating with me, then we have a problem.
The messaging shouldn’t be for me.
31:49
It should be for others.
I should be like, oh, that’s not the necessarily the message that I want to hear, but I understand
31:56
why they have to say those things.
But no, I was actually hearing the messages that I wanted to hear and I may have told was invited
32:03
that I thought the messages.
So OK, that’s on me.
32:07
But anyway, I think we can attribute a couple of things.
Part of it is the messaging maybe not resonating and of course the tip with many people don’t don’t
32:16
know what a fascist is necessarily or you know, like in terms of even oligarchy.
In 1995, I was like, oh, we have an oligarchy.
32:22
But that’s what I was studying.
Most people don’t even study what I study.
32:25
So it’s not even about a college degree.
It’s just this stuff is so obscure.
32:29
To a certain extent, I think we can’t underestimate the distaste that Americans have for voting for
a woman for top level office.
32:36
I think we can’t just count the sort of baby boomer piece still being influential and most of those
baby boomer men in particular, they’re just being very that Trump is speaking their language.
32:48
I think that the media still plays a really big role.
So I don’t want to discount it because someone came out with a news survey this morning that said
32:56
3/4 of the podcasts and stuff that are out there right now are 3/4 of them are Republican leaning.
So even if you’re not watching Fox News, if you’re listening to Joe Rogan or whoever, Ben Shapiro,
33:08
like it’s an ear worm and those people are listening to that.
And then I would say I’m not putting it down to just union men, like younger Union, but I do think
33:16
that there could potentially be an issue around what messages are younger men receiving.
Again, there was a piece yesterday that was sort of countering that, but so I don’t have the data on
33:26
that.
But it’s a part that I’m curious about because you just see this really distinct difference between
33:31
educated women and non educated men.
The thing that’s scary is I think I heard, and I could be wrong, but is it true that 1/3 of eligible
33:39
voters didn’t cast a ballot in the last?
Correct, correct.
33:43
So, right.
So we’re actually only living out the mandate of the third of the population.
33:48
And so I think the other thing that’s important about that sort of came on my campaign management of
those issues to tell me, Christina, 25% of the population is just a bit wacko.
33:56
You have to understand that 22 to 25% is never an accurate understanding of what’s happening.
Those folks are just sort of up on another space about 75%.
34:05
And what we’ve seen is that percent.
So that was in 2015 when he told me that, right?
34:08
So I think what we’ve seen is that percentage like inched up a little bit, but still you have folks
that they want a more Democrats are seen as not as powerful.
34:18
So they want somebody who’s powerful and going to take charge.
And then what you see here between the Democrats and the Republican, they and I’m not the first
34:24
person to say this, Nancy Pelosi has also said it, but it’s like a battered woman versus male
situation.
34:28
Like it just feels so gendered how the parties are even treated.
The Democrats are just treated like some woman that’s disposable and can never do anything right,
34:37
can’t get it together.
You know, we should feel like that.
34:39
I’m happy to blame the Democrats like I’m a Democrat, but I’m happy to blame them and be like the
messaging to be better.
34:44
But also it’s never good enough.
It’s it’s never enough.
34:46
Nothing they’re ever doing is enough.
Like, at what point does it become obvious that if you have just decided that the Republican is the
34:53
patriarchy party and because we’re still so entrenched in the patriarchy?
As you know, I mentioned this to you, but I sort of struck up a conversation with this very
35:01
articulate, very political individual on Instagram, which is not something that you usually do, but
I needed to understand because they claim to be very human and, you know, humanity focused.
35:12
But then they were very, very vocal about not voting for the democracy or for the Republicans.
So they are in this category of people that didn’t vote.
35:20
And they were very, very vocal about it was basically about choosing between two war criminals by
pretending it’s democracy.
35:28
And, you know, they talked about the dangers of dictatorship.
But at the same time, the Democratic Party, it’s as if they haven’t been sustaining brutal regimes,
35:37
as if they aren’t directly responsible for the very structures of power that Trump is now using.
And they go on to say how just voting for the Democrats does not stop this cycle and actually it
35:49
just feeds it.
And they actually said that the word for this is the ratchet effect.
35:52
And how they just said that there’s a whole group of people that just need to stop all of this.
And, and they go on to explain sort of what’s going on.
36:00
But again, back to the Democratic Party hasn’t been completely innocent in a lot of their
international policies and responses.
36:11
And of course, we’ve got the issues with Israel, etcetera.
I just, you know, it’s so hard because you’re looking at how people are just feeling so
36:20
disenfranchised and just feeling just they they have no power and they’re just seeing all of this
horrible policies and wars just unfolding.
36:30
But yet they don’t vote knowing that there’s a dictatorship in the wings.
And now that is this better?
36:37
I don’t know, dude.
I mean, and it’s just, I can see how all of this happens, but at the same time, it just is bonkers
36:43
to me that people also then allow this to happen.
But I don’t know.
36:47
There’s no easier answer to this of course, but I just wanted to put it out there and see what you
think.
36:51
Yeah, I mean, I think that that’s an important question to ask.
So the folks in power now think that things are so fun that they have to literally dismantle it.
37:00
And you may remember Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, congressman from the Bronx, who started the phrase
defund the police.
37:07
And people had problem with that because, well, surely we could not throw the baby out with the
bathwater or whatever.
37:13
And she was like, no, we just need to dismantle the whole system.
And so there seems to be consensus on the far left, on the far right that we just need to dismantle
37:19
everything.
I’m more of a, hey, let’s be strategic, if not throw everything out together person.
37:25
But I do see if that person’s strategy is to take 100 year view and to say that we have to go to
this bad place before we can go to a better place, then maybe it’s just that none of us are going to
37:41
be living the lives we thought.
We’re all going to be living quite a different life.
37:45
And so fine enough, we’ll adjust.
We’re humans.
37:48
We’re we’re good at eventually adjusting, maybe not at first, but eventually.
And so if we view it in that way, then we know that there’s going to be a fight for the next 28 to
37:57
30 years minimum and that we will get to the other side and what the other side looks like, we
hopefully can build something better.
38:04
But in the meantime, a lot of people might die.
A lot of people are probably going to and be imprisoned and go without and have a very different
38:12
lifestyle to the one that the baby Boomers had and that Gen.
Xers grew up in and that millennials had to a certain degree.
38:19
And yeah.
It kind of brings us back to what we talked about at the beginning, which is the importance of being
38:26
political and rather than just simply not voting and not doing anything.
I mean, of course this could be polemic, just me saying this, but is just not doing anything and
38:36
just, you know, having a loud voice and saying just don’t for anyone and taking that backseat.
Is that the answer?
38:41
I mean, I I don’t know if it.
Is, I mean, I don’t think so at all.
38:44
I don’t think so at all.
I think you need to get your hands dirty no matter what, and you’ve got to figure out a way.
38:49
And so you can build community, you can do lots of other things that help build democracy without
being overtly political.
38:57
But there’s a lot of work that needs to be done and a lot of rebuilding that needs to be done.
And I can say that, you know, that is one small silver lining to all of this mess is that it’s
39:06
bringing people together in a way that is helpful is building a resistance of people.
The question is, will that be enough?
39:12
Will people be able to continue to do it?
It’s exhausting work.
39:15
And also, life carries on, right?
You still have weddings and anniversaries and, you know, and people still die and things still
39:22
happen.
Life still keeps happening.
39:24
And so the question is, you know, how do you balance fighting for what’s right and for the life that
you want so that we can revive the social contract?
39:31
Because that’s essentially what’s happened here.
The social contract is dead.
39:34
We’re talking so much about Trump.
I don’t believe that this is even about Trump.
39:39
He’s a puppet, I feel in all of this.
And we’re seeing, you know, all of this sort of Silicon Valley power that’s behind actually, I think
39:48
all of this.
What are your thoughts on this unchecked power?
39:51
You know, they got Vanson to be the vice president.
Trump, again, I just think is the puppet.
39:57
And you’ve got these puppet masters who are from big tech who, you know, the dark enlightenment.
And just really curious to know what concerns you most about all of this?
40:07
Yeah, I mean, again, not just check power, but they’re weighing into things.
They don’t have security clearances.
40:12
They don’t have the way the government normally works, gone out the window.
The likes of Elon Musk and Peter Teal have been solves, have been accused of a variety of things and
40:21
have somehow avoided consequences for them.
So we talk about the courts just working only for white guys and people getting away with
40:29
everything.
This is a lack of accountability in a system that continues to allow that for certain groups of
40:34
people on the regular, and we’ve seen it.
I mean, Peter Hill’s been gotten accused of of horrific things for more than 10 years and he’s still
40:41
walking the streets like a regular person.
So I think that it’s just the way what 1 podcaster calls the good old boys and they’re the new good
40:49
old boys, but they’re still the same, still same idea.
Get a pass for everything.
40:53
If you have enough money to get your way through court, then you’ll hire the right lawyers to get
you through and everything will be fine.
40:59
And there’s no consequence.
There’s no consequences to actions.
41:02
And that is again, the most ironic part of it all.
Because everything that they say, I mean, it’s like, you know, the other day war plan, they
41:09
literally I don’t there’s a psychological term for that.
When you say the the exact thing that you’ve done, do you mean, but you say the opposite of it and
41:16
you’re putting it out there like not just lying, but if you’re literally saying the thing that was
done that you did, but you’re saying you didn’t do it and we all know that you did it.
41:24
And once again, it’s not all guys, right.
So my husband certainly isn’t like this.
41:27
There’s this level of accountability that women are held to the standard that we must meet and
people of color is even higher than that which white women must meet.
41:34
And so it’s like mind boggling to all of us because, well, I’m sure people of color, Yeah, white
ladies, we’ve been here this whole time.
41:40
Like, this is this keeps happening.
Where have you been?
41:43
And it’s not that I don’t know what’s happening.
Of course I know what’s happening.
41:45
I watch it happen all the time.
I’ve had to come with it for ages.
41:48
But how do you stop it?
And now they’re in charge.
41:50
I don’t know.
And there’s a lot of people, including judges, who are going to need to speak out and lawyers.
41:54
This idea that that Paul Weis guy just did whatever Trump said and, you know, bowed to him.
No, no, we’re going to need you to find your backbone.
42:01
Because if not, then we’re in for a really horrible dictatorship for at least 30 years.
Yeah, well, this was never going to be the Happy Rainbow Flower podcast.
42:10
And it’s just, it’s just, it is what it is.
But people do feel really powerless right now in the face of such large scale political shifts.
42:21
What can you say to those people who just feel their efforts, whether voting, activism or community
engagement, you know, just don’t make a difference?
42:29
What can people do to feel like they can help in some way?
It does make a difference.
42:34
First of all, it makes a difference.
All of those things that you just said make a difference.
42:38
I saw a video on Instagram the other day.
I’m not on TikTok.
42:41
And someone was like, part of building community is showing up to things that you commit to.
And so if you sign up for something, show up.
42:49
If you said you were going to be at somebody’s birthday party, unless something really terrible is
happening, like you’re very sick or whatever, go show up.
42:56
It takes effort to build community.
And if you want a village to be there for you, you have to be there for your village.
43:01
And showing up in those small ways makes a difference.
And I thought that was really meaningful.
43:05
So not just at a political level, it’s showing up and we are all tired, we are all exhausted, all of
the things.
43:11
So find shortcuts however you can.
If you committed to going to the birthday party, but you can’t your own time to get a gift, OK, just
43:17
bring it next time or whatever, you know, but still show up, go to a knitting circle.
You know what?
43:21
In other countries, what we used to do for civic activism, we would find whatever that country’s
equivalent was to a knitting circle or a book club or whatever, and we would then train those people
43:31
on whatever it was that we were training.
So whether that was health or civic resistance or whatever, because that was a community of people
43:38
who came together on a regular basis, who trusted each other, who believed in each other, and maybe
they came for the books or the knitting, but it didn’t matter.
43:44
Even that matters.
Connection with other humans is what people want right now.
43:49
It is what can help make a difference.
And if you have time, in addition to that, please take a civic resistance training.
43:55
It’s nonviolent civic resistance.
We are not suggesting that anybody take up arms.
44:00
We were talking about nonviolent civic resistance in the way of Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther
King.
44:05
And obviously go out and vote, get involved in a partisan way.
If you want to get involved in a non courtesan way, find your indivisible group, whatever you can.
44:12
Take on small things and one thing or two things and set your goals once a week.
Whatever you can do, whatever you can manage.
44:20
Also continue to talk to your children about what it really means to live in a free and fair society
and make sure that you are helping them to see examples of that in their everyday life.
44:29
That we don’t want to go away.
Oh my gosh, thank you.
44:32
That’s so inspirational and has actually filled my heart with a bit of hope.
Is there anything I have asked you that you’d like to tell our listeners?
44:40
We are the answer, Philippa.
No one is coming to save us.
44:43
We are the answer to our own problems.
And we must work really hard to make sure that this man and his cronies don’t take over what was
44:53
once a aspiring free and fair democracy and that we can do it.
We truly can.
44:59
It’s not too late yet.
But we have to work really hard to make sure and make sure that our neighbors know and make sure our
45:04
neighbors neighbors know and that it’s all about community.
Christina, thank you for your time.
45:08
I know that you’re in the UK and doing your thing there, so thanks for fitting me in.
And I just, I’m so grateful to you and all the work that you’ve done over so many years.
45:19
Now you’re needed on the home front.
I was hoping this day wouldn’t come, but it did, so I’m happy to use my still further needed just
45:25
like it was in my own country.
Yeah, I know.
45:28
Thank you so much Philippa for this conversation.
And as always, thank you for the work that you do and the amazing support that you give to folks and
45:36
helping us keep humanity in focus.
Thanks Christina.
45:39
Until the next time, bye bye.
Hey everyone, this is Philippa again.
45:46
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46:37
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