00:00:03:15 – 00:00:33:16
Philippa White
Welcome to the show, where we expose new perspectives on our ever evolving world through the lenses of various industries, cultures and backgrounds. Our guests are disruptors united by a common goal to bring their purpose to life, whether they’re from the commercial world or third sector, from the Global North or the Global South. Expect an inspirational journey that will transform your perspective on just what is possible.

00:00:34:04 – 00:01:03:02
Philippa White
My name is Philippa White and welcome to TIE Unearthed in 2001. Just after 911, I moved to London after finishing my business degree on an exchange program in Bangkok, Thailand. It was a tricky economic time, but I was determined to get a job in advertising. After a successful interview, I was hired by Chris Norman, one of the directors of Then Ideas Unlimited.

00:01:03:19 – 00:01:25:18
Philippa White
But the chapter that I joined the Met was just the start of an extraordinary story for the small business at the time that I worked for them. The agency was run by three directors. Chris Norman was the director that I worked with as he looked after the not for profit part of the portfolio. The other two directors looked after the commercial brands such as events, horse shows, property and luxury goods.

00:01:26:15 – 00:01:48:23
Philippa White
As the company evolved, the not for profit arm of the business grew to about 90% of the business. Chris was always interested in promoting more of a human to human approach to business, a connection to humanity and values, not just self-interest and commercial outcomes. The focus on the not for profit clients seemed like the only way to realize this mission.

00:01:49:15 – 00:02:22:21
Philippa White
But then things started to take an interesting turn. He realized there was a better way, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Welcome to episode 77 of TIE Unearthed. Today we’re speaking with Chris Norman, founder and CEO of Good Agency, a pioneer of brand purpose and has worked for the last 28 years across the commercial government and charity sectors, helping them create value from the positive impact that they can have on the world.

00:02:23:12 – 00:02:50:06
Philippa White
Chris was included in the 2019 Progress 1000 as one of the 25 most influential people in London in media, and is a regular judge and panelist. Chris’s breadth of experience is with the largest commercial and charity brands, and his story and experience is fascinating. So throw in those running shoes or grab that favorite beverage and here’s Chris.

00:02:51:06 – 00:02:56:10
Philippa White
Chris, thank you so much for joining me here today. It is just so great to have you with us.

00:02:57:01 – 00:02:57:13
Chris Norman
My pleasure.

00:02:57:18 – 00:03:03:18
Philippa White
Before we go any further, just if you could tell our listeners just where you are, because I just think it’s quite nice for people to be able to picture it.

00:03:04:00 – 00:03:12:06
Chris Norman
Yep. Yep. I’m in Suffolk. In London. South. South side of the river in London. Sunny, sunny London.

00:03:12:14 – 00:03:28:19
Philippa White
Though. Now, I don’t get to ask this very often, and I think you are the first person that I would interview that I’ve actually worked for. We are talking a long time ago, but it is a fun way to start. So I’m just just wondering, what is your first memory of me?

00:03:28:20 – 00:03:56:00
Chris Norman
I reckon everyone will have the same memory as well. Energy, positivity and smile. Oh, that was. That was. It was just such a full of energy when we met and it almost kind of bowled people over. Oh, yes. And, yeah, it was it was exciting. It was really exciting, actually, that that person’s going to get stuff done because it it’s and nothing can stand in the way.

00:03:56:05 – 00:03:56:23
Chris Norman
It was great.

00:03:57:13 – 00:04:25:22
Philippa White
Well, as I said just before we started. Thank you. Before we started recording. I’ve just finished writing your section in my book. I got to go back and remember just Jan. That was my first proper job in England. And just remembering walking in, you know, I remember sitting close to you. I just remember the energy as well within the the office, all of the, you know, Candida and Katy and Laura and Simon and.

00:04:26:15 – 00:04:27:23
Philippa White
Yeah, so were you.

00:04:28:01 – 00:04:29:00
Chris Norman
Well, yeah, that.

00:04:29:19 – 00:04:30:23
Philippa White
Was 2001.

00:04:31:08 – 00:04:32:12
Chris Norman
Yeah, it’s a long time.

00:04:32:12 – 00:04:33:16
Philippa White
It’s a long time ago.

00:04:33:17 – 00:04:34:11
Chris Norman
Yeah, but to be honest.

00:04:34:22 – 00:04:49:10
Philippa White
Yeah. Now, before we talk about the incredible story that is good, perhaps you can tell us a little bit about you before Ideas Unlimited, which is obviously the story before good and just how you got into the space and why does it interest you?

00:04:49:16 – 00:05:20:19
Chris Norman
Yeah, I suppose I had a kind of sense of social injustice and I was kind of angry about the world growing up because I could see things going on which had upset me as a child, that the way I saw injustice and I was kind of early to read things like The Ecologist magazine, because there was incredible journalism around environmental issues in the late seventies and early eighties, which weren’t really topical, but it was, you know, it got my interest.

00:05:21:06 – 00:05:53:02
Chris Norman
And then there’s people like John Pilger, who was a journalist, I think sat around. He wrote a book called Heroes, which is had a profound effect on me in terms of wanting to change things and really want to change and also Anita Roddick and her autobiography and just her story as well. And she, I think, heart and soul and just what was behind these people, they saw something that didn’t feel right and they went to do something about it.

00:05:53:13 – 00:06:18:15
Chris Norman
And so so I was in a couple of other sectors doing badly and not being inspired and thought, actually, this is, you know, I want to be able to affect change. And I genuinely believe that communication is the strongest weapon of change. And I think this was brilliant ideas out there. But unless they communicated in a clear, concise, compelling way, they just won’t do anything.

00:06:18:15 – 00:06:31:08
Chris Norman
They’ll just stay there and die. The idea will die. And so, so. So it was really how to use communication to effect change. That was my I felt that was my skill set. So how do I try that to effect change.

00:06:31:15 – 00:06:45:03
Philippa White
Yeah. So can you tell us about good and perhaps a little bit about the story of the company? You know, what is your point of difference and how did it come about?

00:06:45:11 – 00:07:09:05
Chris Norman
Yeah, so I think it’s kind of evolved. So we started as a partners starting out and we kind of each chose a sector and my I chose to do the course, led nonprofits and work with businesses in those days it was see, it’s all you know, they were trying to demonstrate their good. But in those days it was to try and defend shareholder value.

00:07:09:05 – 00:07:31:14
Chris Norman
The CSR was an independent mechanism. The other person inspired me. Just going back to what inspired it was how can I bring down Milton Friedman and all his thinking that he’s the worst thing that happened to this planet and society then since I Beelzebub. But it’s it was just seeing where the enemy wasn’t. It was creating a world that wasn’t actually an inclusive world.

00:07:31:14 – 00:07:58:20
Chris Norman
It wasn’t a, you know, and I come from a very privileged background. I get that. But you can see the injustice around and the imbalance and the inequality. And so I with these other partners, I chose to work in this area where I was going to use communication to effect change through not for profit, lots, lots of charities but also try and get businesses to leverage their good how you know you should be able to be a successful business and also do good.

00:07:58:20 – 00:08:40:04
Chris Norman
And that was that was a kind of move in my belief in 95. And that part of the business just grew so rapidly and so quickly. That became the business. And it then really became the biggest and the best in that in that film. So yeah. And talent point of difference, I think our point of difference stems from the founding principles of actually the UK can do good and be successful, you know, and that holding onto that idea, that purpose is in everything, every single thing you think about, you should be able to apply a level of purpose and values connecting people.

00:08:40:19 – 00:09:15:08
Chris Norman
We talk about human to human, not not be to see or whatever it is, but human to human is what we are all about. Everything we have is is connected to how it impacts other people’s lives and not unnecessary directly and indirectly. So it’s really important that you talk about the indirect as well. So we I would say the other thing that makes us useful as we most probably turn down more business than we’ve actually accepted, businesses will come and ask us to frame the good and they all they’re looking for is just a communication solution or brand solution.

00:09:15:08 – 00:09:33:19
Chris Norman
They’re not looking actually to demonstrate their goods. So the value of the purpose is in the demonstration, not the claim. And so we don’t really care that much about the money, which is a hard thing to say, but we have to be profitable to continue to grow and to have an impact. But that’s not the personal. We don’t think about that.

00:09:34:07 – 00:09:44:01
Chris Norman
We actually think about what is it that we can have an even bigger, okay, have we got the laws to do it? Demonstrate that as well. Are they committed to that? So that’s what our court process is.

00:09:44:01 – 00:10:04:22
Philippa White
But what would be really helpful, I think for the listeners when you talk about a company that would go to you and that isn’t demonstrating impact, what would be an example of a company that is demonstrating impact? What is that kind of company or or what do you need to to know before you can then work with them?

00:10:04:22 – 00:10:05:05
Philippa White
What does that.

00:10:05:05 – 00:10:30:14
Chris Norman
Mean? Yeah. So it’s interesting because we will talk to anyone if they want to talk about this, will talk to anyone and what we don’t do is kind of judge them first, first to come and talk to us and said, I would like to talk to you about purpose and they will listen. And if we do think they’re committed to actually effecting change and in changing themselves, what they can’t do is just change outside and not change them selves.

00:10:31:01 – 00:11:04:14
Chris Norman
But if this fossil fuel company said, right, we’re dropping oil totally and we’re going to go to the renewable space, we say Great, will will help you on your journey. But if they say we would like to tell everyone about our renewable activity and we go, great, you know, that’s quite exciting. Can you tell me what percentage of you are indeed in renewable verses investing in fossil fuel and they say 0.3 per cent we’ll say we’re not interested because all you’re doing is using that as a greenwashing to be there to try and win the emotional battle which which you’re losing and you lost that.

00:11:05:04 – 00:11:25:19
Philippa White
Yeah. Okay, well, that makes sense. Now, when we met in London not long ago, a couple of months ago, last month, I was explaining obviously my book Return on Humanity. And it’s very much rooted in this world of being and this really jargony word that I can’t stand. But it’s the only word right now that I can figure out how to communicate is human centric.

00:11:26:01 – 00:11:56:10
Philippa White
Now, I’m I’m actually trying to redefine that in the book because it is a lot of jargon. At the end of the day, obviously human a more human company and more human leaders. That’s what we’re talking about in our book. And again, human is a loaded word as well, considering in this sort of AI world from the point of view of being human centric, you know, why is being a more human company or a more human leader, you know, why is that important from your point of view?

00:11:56:10 – 00:12:04:08
Philippa White
And what does that mean to you and the work you do? I think that would be really helpful, too.

00:12:04:08 – 00:12:32:13
Chris Norman
Yeah. Yeah. So I think I think it’s interesting having worked in this space for 20 years, we’ve been we can see the change and I think in the nineties and the noughties there was a starting shift. So this started to shift from people engaged with say for a job, just the remuneration and benefits that change to remuneration and benefits and what your values are.

00:12:32:13 – 00:12:59:19
Chris Norman
Quite an interesting correlation between the launch of the World Wide Web in 94 and the transparency that that gave us with people being concerned about how they were judged on the brands they bought, where they were, how they behaved, because then actually they were conscious that everything they did was a reflection of themselves. The Internet was it was going to make people very much more conscious of that.

00:12:59:19 – 00:13:24:24
Chris Norman
In those days, we talked about values, value and values. You’ve just turned that into kind of human. So people’s values is what we’re now connecting with, whether it be as an employee, as an investor, as a consumer, as a member of a community and civil society, is everything about that is value. So when we look at a company, we rebrand companies around the purpose.

00:13:25:11 – 00:13:33:22
Chris Norman
We no longer use the term values because if you go to employees and say, right, these are all values, these are well, those are corporate values. They’re not human values. So what.

00:13:33:22 – 00:13:34:20
Philippa White
Do you feel is like.

00:13:34:20 – 00:13:56:16
Chris Norman
The business? Exactly. So we’ve changed that into behaviors. So we know right behaviors and they’re all there are values and within that then viewed within that. But actually it’s so much easier to understand behaviors than it is values. And that’s that, as you say, it is the essence of an organization. And we don’t behave like that. We behave like this, and that’s why we do it.

00:13:56:16 – 00:14:21:06
Chris Norman
So so I think a human is connecting deeply into what people care about, what they feel as opposed to just what they think they do. And that’s that’s a very different way of doing that. I think. I think the world is changing to a much more led by empathy and emotion rather than just by the rational. I think that’s that’s what people are looking they are looking to connect with.

00:14:21:08 – 00:14:24:01
Chris Norman
That is through everything they do now. Yeah.

00:14:24:01 – 00:14:42:09
Philippa White
But emotion that essence, the emotions interesting behavior is interesting because it kind of comes back to what you were talking about. Any company saying that they’re doing something, but you know, you need to walk the walk or walk them and then authenticity and that’s through behavior. It’s through what you’re actually doing.

00:14:42:17 – 00:15:01:18
Chris Norman
It is that and you feel cheated, but that’s an emotion. You feel cheated. If they suddenly find out they’d been lying to you. Yeah. And so, or you feel slightly cheated that you trusted them and you find that they got something horrible in their supply chain. So it’s much, much stronger now than it has ever been and it’s going to get stronger, I think.

00:15:02:02 – 00:15:23:10
Philippa White
Yeah. And it’s interesting actually, because in my book I talk a lot about human leadership when I talk about human companies. But I think when you’re talking about emotion, again, it’s how a leader makes you feel working and it’s how a company makes you feel. If a company makes you feel good and actually it’s it’s genuine, you feel it.

00:15:23:16 – 00:15:32:16
Philippa White
And particularly, as you said about the Internet, I mean, the Internet now making that very transparent so you can figure things out very, very you can’t hide.

00:15:33:00 – 00:15:56:13
Chris Norman
Yeah. That transparency is is an incredible tool, tool, tool and weapon and weapon. But I think that’s why we good we always start with feels think and do start with think from this filter do feel you as you’re your feelings are the first reaction and then you’ll post rationalize that and then you act on it so but we are driven by freedom.

00:15:56:13 – 00:16:17:19
Chris Norman
So it’s and just to say that we think that it sounds soft, but it’s not. We think kindness is the strongest in the world that pretty much so a lot of the problems or stop people to think is this the kind of thing to do or is this going to be unkind? And it is just such a strong superpower.

00:16:18:04 – 00:16:38:04
Philippa White
I couldn’t agree more. That’s the crux of my book. And it’s funny, isn’t it? Because before, when we were back in CSR territory, it was sort of this one division within a company to kind of just take boxes. And that time you know, these were the softer skills, they were kind of the softer skills that people didn’t really pay attention to.

00:16:38:10 – 00:16:44:12
Philippa White
What we’re recognizing now is actually these softer skills. They lead to lawsuits, like if you don’t have them.

00:16:44:22 – 00:16:46:09
Chris Norman
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

00:16:46:13 – 00:16:59:13
Philippa White
And so it’s like they’re not actually as unimportant as perhaps people saw previously. People were competitive companies. And if you don’t have them, they lead to not so positive outcomes.

00:16:59:13 – 00:17:26:08
Chris Norman
Yeah. And there was an interesting thing in the probably in the 2008 and turnaround there that it started becoming difficult to hire for banks because who wanted to work in the banking world? No, just the judgment on it. They do some good stuff. There’s some lovely people in there. But but the reputation changed that and the same things that happened to all the, you know, the Facebook and Google, they’re just toxic brands because it makes you feel bad.

00:17:26:08 – 00:17:53:05
Chris Norman
They’re just exploiting. They’ve gone too far. They’re not actually thinking about their impact on the world. They’re just actually just taking over the world like Amazon, the rest of it. So it is quite interesting how that’s shaping society more, not just business initiatives starting on people. I hope and I believe that they’re actually going to start thinking and how you’re making people feel more as a business rather than just providing service or product.

00:17:53:14 – 00:17:53:22
Chris Norman
Yeah.

00:17:54:06 – 00:18:04:21
Philippa White
Now good is a B Corp for for those who don’t know what B Corp is a better corporation, which maybe you want to define with a B Corp is just so that people can know.

00:18:05:03 – 00:18:33:06
Chris Norman
Well, it’s an interesting journey because if you’re going to say we’ve been B Corp and we’ve been champions for a long time, we haven’t. So we tend to be very late because we didn’t believe in it, because we just saw what we did was so another presentation scheme and the problem accreditation scheme is once you’ve got the tick box and that dropdown and what we want to do is push through and get further and further and and we didn’t like become the labeling of it.

00:18:33:06 – 00:18:53:01
Chris Norman
And, and it was it became a it’s become a kind of a kind of boasting label. Look at us. We only good. So what we decided was we were going to hold back all that hold back until we thought we were ready to do because we were going to be, you know, really good agencies or very, very small footprint.

00:18:53:01 – 00:19:11:20
Chris Norman
We do lots of good stuff, but we thought we could do better and we just kept on holding back on that. So we then said, Right, okay, we’re ready, we’ll go for it. And we went for it. And last year, this year and we became the highest ranked B Corp in the creative field and agency world in the UK.

00:19:11:20 – 00:19:31:14
Chris Norman
So and so. So it was, I think I scored 158. The average is about 90 or so, but we, we just and we’re now looking for other things. Now we’re saying, okay, fine, cool, will carry on doing that. We want to push and be cool doing the same as well. I mean it’s getting that credit, that brilliant. They really are good.

00:19:31:22 – 00:20:03:04
Chris Norman
And our kind of ignorance of the scheme is it’s not just an accreditation scheme. They are driving you forward, you have got targets and you’re pushing that. But we just wanted to make sure we were in the state to tackle good for goodness sake. Now we’ve really got to be the best doing what we’re doing. And that’s that there’s locations they set up a framework that evaluates a company’s ambition, not just where they are in social impact and environmental impact and the world ambition.

00:20:03:04 – 00:20:20:19
Chris Norman
In terms of the social environmental impact. That’s the difference, I think, from the plantation schemes of the presidency and just measure where you are, what people are saying, okay, well, measure where you are, that’s fine. But actually, what is your ambition? Where where are you going further? And I think that’s the exciting bit and that wasn’t very clear when they first came over here.

00:20:21:06 – 00:20:43:03
Chris Norman
And that’s why when we first had conversations with them, they said, well, it does. It’s not clear that this is about driving a better future, other than the fact that know there’s a great accreditation scheme. So so it’s a it’s a it’s a measure of of ambition in in a broader context and purpose. But ultimately on very specific social and environmental measures.

00:20:43:12 – 00:21:12:09
Philippa White
You are also now employee owned. Why have you decided to make that company structure also a reality? What I find fascinating, because you have always you always challenged a lot of things. You’ve always been somebody who has your beliefs. And there’s no way anyone’s going to see that you’re not living out that purpose. Whatever challenges you face along the way, it certainly hasn’t been easy, and I’ve witnessed it.

00:21:12:09 – 00:21:30:17
Philippa White
I mean, it’s just extraordinarily inspirational. There’s not a lot of companies that choose to be employee owned and I’m just you know, it takes the power away from you. And, you know, I know that you’ve got a council now. Employee council. Yeah. If you can just talk to people about that decision.

00:21:31:00 – 00:21:52:07
Chris Norman
Yeah, it was driven by two things. One, one, it was getting increasingly council to become owned by one person, which is me. And that just didn’t feel right down to work I’m doing. And, you know. Yes, it didn’t feel that was all the sharing of the of the benefits. It wasn’t clear. We did a lot of that in terms of giving bonuses.

00:21:52:08 – 00:22:15:05
Chris Norman
And I mean, that’s kind of fun, but it didn’t feel right. So that was one of the but the main part of it was succession planning in terms of having done it for 28 years, hopefully doing for another few years. But what happens to the good is never. But an individual has never been about an individual. When we first started to talking about do we put names and, you know, initials on the door, it’s just not that that’s just not us.

00:22:15:23 – 00:22:43:05
Chris Norman
So how do we ensure the future of good going forward without being subsumed by a big network or the private equity group or things like that? And the best way we thought doing that was transferring control to the staff. And it’s a it’s a really it’s been a really interesting exercise because nothing really changed overnight because it still we’re still operating as we were operating.

00:22:43:05 – 00:23:04:23
Chris Norman
But what does change is decision making. And we have to now think as a board, we have to now think we are accountable to the staff for our decisions and what is the right thing for the interests of the staff, though? So we have both. What’s the interest of the society and the planet? That’s that’s what we do with all our clients.

00:23:05:05 – 00:23:18:22
Chris Norman
And now it’s also what is the interest for staff? It’s in their interest as well to to make us a success. So it was really two things. One is one controlled by one person didn’t feel right. And secondly, succession to ensure the future of good.

00:23:18:24 – 00:23:38:11
Philippa White
I know that defining purpose is obviously important to you in the work that you do with your clients. When we spoke the last time, you said marketing and sales lacks meaning if it doesn’t have purpose. Now, I was at an event for a financial services industry thing in London. This is 220 to get number one probably this time last year.

00:23:38:14 – 00:24:02:12
Philippa White
And the event was basically talking about purpose and the importance of purpose. And then at the event it was a whole lot of marketing people that were there and someone said, Yeah, but we’re aware that we’re going into a recession and it’s great that we’re having this event and we’re talking about all these great things. But I think we all know that it’s a bit of a waste of time because purpose is going to take a backseat.

00:24:02:20 – 00:24:23:22
Philippa White
I think it was one of the speakers that said that and then everyone’s like, Yeah, no, that’s a good point. And I think I was speaking next. And so I gave my spiel, but then I picked up on that and I said, This is exactly what I don’t agree with. And if you all believe this, then you’re you’re you don’t understand what purpose is or why a company needs it or even what it looks like.

00:24:23:23 – 00:24:44:06
Philippa White
So everyone would say, you know, business is just going to go back to you, you know, business as usual. And when we met in London, we spoke about this. And I was fascinated with your response because when I was in London a few months ago, you know, we’re still in this recession. There’s cost of living crisis. So many people are scared about.

00:24:44:10 – 00:25:01:23
Philippa White
I there’s just so much going on. And if purpose was going to take a back seat, it would be now. And I wanted to know how you guys were doing, seeing as your whole business is kind of focused on that. And I just want to know your thoughts regarding this. How has your experience been with purpose taking a backseat?

00:25:02:03 – 00:25:30:16
Chris Norman
The campaign magazine headline about 20 tens and something said, Well, that was enough of purpose. Let’s get on with selling stuff. And every year it got bigger. Every every other year they say, Well, that was enough of that stuff. Let’s get on to doing something else. I mean, it is it is not a marketing concept purpose is actually a philosophy in terms of how you operate as a business, how you engage society, how you engage with the environment.

00:25:31:02 – 00:25:50:02
Chris Norman
So that’s an it’s a fundamental flaw to think that, you know, the focus is just about brand. You need to communicate it, you need to leverage it. But just very, very quickly, there are three levers of purpose. The first one, how we got to where we are, scarcity of supply. In the nineties, people started saying, well, hold on, you know, the reverse of it.

00:25:50:02 – 00:26:08:15
Chris Norman
It’s sort of saying, we’re in trouble here. We can see where we’re going, see the trajectory businesses. So say we’re losing we’re losing access to supply chains because because of lack of water, because we’ve used all the raw materials. So so they had to stop thinking. We need to think much cleverer than this and be much more sustainable in terms of how we operate.

00:26:08:24 – 00:26:31:20
Chris Norman
Okay. That’s the first one. Regulation and legislation that has been coming in for the last 20 or 30 years where you see the damage being caused and governments are looking at who’s accountable and who’s in a sorted out. And now you’ve got a situation where companies are being taken to court and they’re being fined billions of pounds to sort out the problem they’ve been caused.

00:26:31:20 – 00:26:55:24
Chris Norman
And that’s just going to accelerate. This is going to continue. They’ve been saying, right, we need to fix this. We can’t continue to be at risk because because some fossil fuel companies in America cannot get insurance, they can’t get cover because the practices are not purposeful. Then the third lever is civil society. Civil society are not going to accept that businesses can’t do anything about it.

00:26:56:01 – 00:27:15:06
Chris Norman
Businesses are going to be held to account by civil society and are increasingly being held to account. So those three things are the things that they’re not going away. They’re getting it’s getting worse. So so one of the one of the founding fathers of the whole movement of sentiment in climate change is said that we have got six years.

00:27:15:15 – 00:27:34:12
Chris Norman
We had ten years in 2012, we got six years. And if we don’t do this life is going to get so much worse than we think. So and there is there is no burning platform is overused. But that’s what we’re on. And I think any business that thinks we’re going to pull back from purpose either doesn’t understand it or is going to be extinct.

00:27:34:18 – 00:28:00:22
Chris Norman
Yes, they’re going to they’re going to be out of business. So so I think, you know, all businesses, communication and brands and we leverage people’s purpose. I think what’s happened is it’s going to be less in an advertising context. It’s going to be more in a delivery context. So we are working with our clients about framing their purpose, and that helps focus their activity.

00:28:01:18 – 00:28:10:07
Chris Norman
It’s not about permanent purpose. Now let’s do some advertising. We do do some of that, but that’s not really what we did. We’re now actually framing it so they can focus.

00:28:10:11 – 00:28:32:16
Philippa White
So when we spoke, there was an example that you gave of, you know, just a conversation that you’re having with the financial services company. And I think it was an insurance company. And you were saying how you were helping them think and maybe you can bring this to life about just helping them reframe how to even think about their relationship with society.

00:28:32:16 – 00:28:49:02
Philippa White
Do you want to bring that to light? Because I think it’s just really helpful with a story to help people understand what this could look like. What does this evolution kind of look like from the point of view of your work, but also because it’s in relationship to where the world is going and what companies are needing help with?

00:28:49:02 – 00:29:20:22
Chris Norman
Yeah, finance sector is interesting because they’re all saying the same thing. They’re all saying financial wellbeing or, you know, your financial future or to help you prosper and prosper. And so the way they achieve it is focus purely on making as much money as possible, not how they make it. Because that’s, you know, you you just want to be you want to to get financial wellbeing and financial prosperity.

00:29:20:22 – 00:29:40:16
Chris Norman
Well, we’re going to be that much more as an accounting. And so our challenge is, is asking them why they’re doing that for the end user. But the end user, there’s a there’s a price to pay for making money and at the moment is too expensive on society, on the environment. And so we’re changing and saying what is the process?

00:29:40:16 – 00:30:02:14
Chris Norman
There’s a there’s an interesting challenge. Now we’re talking to some of our clients who wouldn’t really think what it is being regenerative businesses. So everyone should businesses. If I take one out I put two back in. Yeah. So so banks don’t think like that, but can you challenge a bank of saying how you’re deriving your money from the companies are derived from?

00:30:02:21 – 00:30:23:19
Chris Norman
Can you ensure that if they’re extracting X, they’re putting back X plus one or more? And it’s a very, very different way of, you know, whoever thought, you know, regenerative is a term used in agriculture, but whoever thought a bank would start there. Okay, yeah, let’s think about that. Let’s think about the impact we have and actually having a positive impact plus.

00:30:25:00 – 00:30:49:02
Chris Norman
And so so I think the whole finance sector with, you know, ESG is kind of a broken system as it’s it’s been abused. It’s been abused. And it’s a technical measures. It’s it’s measure of status quo. It’s a measure of progression or ambition. So I think I think the commercial sectors have to get their head around how they are going to contribute to the solution.

00:30:49:02 – 00:31:10:14
Chris Norman
Everyone is looking for people with solutions. Everyone’s looking to everyone knows it’s a terrible situation out there, but what are you going to do about it and how can I be in that story? So putting people in the story is part of what we do is how do we allow people in society, your customers, your staff, your investors to be part of the story, which is the solution?

00:31:11:10 – 00:31:24:24
Chris Norman
They said, but I think bank is going to go through and we spoke to two or three of them and they all said the same thing is how do we reframe what we do? Because we want to do the right thing, but we’re not quite sure what that means. And so, yeah, I think that’s it’s going to change.

00:31:25:05 – 00:31:43:24
Philippa White
It’s interesting just to the banking sector sector as well and actually back to this thing around purpose, from the point of view of it, you know, it’s going to take a back show. I thought what was interesting from your experience as well was talking to so many of these financial services firms, how many of them were really struggling to find talent?

00:31:44:10 – 00:32:06:07
Chris Norman
Yeah, that’s yeah. But that was that’s been going for some time and it’s just increasing. I mean, it is a it is a real challenge. So these banks are driven by people and algorithms and by people. If you can’t get the best talent now, they’re going to struggle to to deliver the quality of service that the promising or return that they’re promising.

00:32:06:07 – 00:32:18:00
Chris Norman
So, you know, it’s coming home to roost. I think the Milton Friedman philosophy is they have no obligation to society or community or whatever it is. It’s coming. And Jerusalem.

00:32:18:00 – 00:32:20:01
Philippa White
What does a better world look like to you?

00:32:20:08 – 00:32:56:07
Chris Norman
A better world is a world where businesses, civil society and individuals, wide society and individuals can all prosper. But they have a positive impact on the social issues we face and environmental issues based. So this isn’t an either or. This has to sit together that all those different stakeholders can have a positive impact on site environment but also have the most wonderful life be successful progress, innovation, whatever.

00:32:56:07 – 00:33:07:05
Chris Norman
It doesn’t have to be the expense of society, which is what’s been going on for the last 50 years. It’s always I don’t think you have to do that at all. So it’s trying to it’s going back to a place of balance.

00:33:07:18 – 00:33:27:11
Philippa White
Yeah, it’s interesting. In my book, I have to define what being human is. It’s a loaded word, and particularly in AI. And when I start telling people about my book, you know, you could see how it could go on in very return on humanity. You could see it being an A.I. book. It’s not an anti it’s like.

00:33:27:12 – 00:33:28:23
Chris Norman
I don’t I’m.

00:33:28:23 – 00:33:46:14
Philippa White
Not an expert in you know, you could see it as like a human resources book, invest in your people. And it’s not that either. And so, you know, I’m defining humanity, like being human. And for now, I mean, God, the number of iterations this has been true. And I’m still you’re going to see it. I’m going to send you my intro.

00:33:46:14 – 00:34:14:14
Philippa White
It still needs work, but I see it in three ways. One is self-awareness. I think everyone needs to have self-awareness and be aware that you being you not trying to be someone else and looking into your essence in your ways of being different, that’s that. And knowing who you are and what makes you tick, what makes you special so important that people know that because it’s with that, then you start to be able to find your purpose and you know, it links up with the purpose of other people, etc. Then it’s in action because we’re human beings.

00:34:14:14 – 00:34:34:01
Philippa White
We need connection, we need to help people thrive in situations and feel connected because if they don’t, then they’re not going to stay or they’re not going to feel happy or they’re not going to feel fulfilled. And then there’s interdependence. And that’s the third one. And I think that’s that’s a lot of what we do, because we connect the global south with the global north.

00:34:34:19 – 00:34:56:07
Philippa White
And we help people understand that interdependence. But also it’s understanding that decisions made at one place impact another. You know, we are part of an ecosystem in the same way that the bees and the plants are. And we’ve kind of we’ve kind of with AI in systems and technology, we’ve kind of separated ourselves from that. And we need to come back to that.

00:34:56:11 – 00:35:00:19
Philippa White
And so that’s that’s kind of how I’m defining it. I don’t know if it’s clear enough yet in the book, but I’m getting there.

00:35:01:11 – 00:35:21:02
Chris Norman
But I think that’s I mean, I think that’s a missed total sense. But what we say to to clients and people we see is we put humanity into your brand and your business. Yeah, that’s that’s that’s what people say, what’s purpose. And it actually is putting humanity into your brand and business. And that’s that’s fundamental to. Yes. A good.

00:35:21:02 – 00:35:22:05
Philippa White
Business. Exactly.

00:35:22:09 – 00:35:33:11
Chris Norman
You don’t have to be a charity. You can actually operate totally if you put humanity into that. So it’s I think you actually write it’s not just an h.R. Thing, it’s not just it’s actually that humanity is so much more.

00:35:33:21 – 00:36:02:03
Philippa White
Exactly. Yeah. So why are businesses at the center of this? Because you just you just touched on it, but it’s an important point. So you said it’s not you know, you don’t need to be a charity making profit isn’t a bad thing, is it? Why? Why in your mind is it is it important? And actually, interestingly, when you look at the story of good and, you know, what Ideas Unlimited was focusing on, and then you moved to good and it was a very thought through decision with that evolution.

00:36:02:03 – 00:36:08:09
Philippa White
So why are businesses at the center of this? And and why do they matter?

00:36:08:10 – 00:36:27:03
Chris Norman
So so that kind of glib answer is that they cause the problems that they need to solve it. But actually, I don’t I don’t kind of go with that because it kind of feels like a blame game. I think they have the greatest potential to change the world for the better. And they have and it’s not the lack of intent and good people.

00:36:27:03 – 00:36:45:22
Chris Norman
There are lots and lots of people who want to do it. They just trying to find their way. So I think far from purpose, slowing down I think to accelerate. But I think people get it. And fundamentally the people running these businesses are humans. They have feelings and values and and that’s becoming more and more in their decision making process.

00:36:46:02 – 00:36:55:06
Chris Norman
So businesses are fundamental to the solution. Government has a role. The businesses have progressed, influence on our lives totally.

00:36:55:10 – 00:37:03:21
Philippa White
We have actually come to the end. But before I finish, I would like to just see, you know, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you would like to tell our listeners.

00:37:04:01 – 00:37:25:05
Chris Norman
We’re very cognizant of the fact that we are just a small part of the solution and we can be an accelerator being a catalyst. The businesses have to pick this up and it’s coming very, very fast at them. Now they can pick up the waves or they’re going to get smashed into the edge. So it is an exciting time.

00:37:25:05 – 00:37:40:16
Chris Norman
I just think we should face the future with optimism and it’s going to be challenging in many ways. But and I think good is placed well with a lot of experience and businesses from all different sectors. I think we’re placed well and we’re kind of having fun enjoying it.

00:37:41:01 – 00:37:57:03
Philippa White
And you’ve been doing it for so long. I think that’s the thing. I mean, you haven’t just sort of started this. This has come from a place of authenticity and real belief for our listeners to know. And the book does come out there is, as I say, a great story about good. There was a little bit more information.

00:37:57:07 – 00:38:00:03
Philippa White
Thank you for joining us. I thank you so much for your time.

00:38:00:03 – 00:38:01:17
Chris Norman
There’s a lot of fun. Yeah.

00:38:02:02 – 00:38:03:02
Philippa White
Okay. Next.

00:38:03:22 – 00:38:08:18
Chris Norman
You know.

00:38:08:18 – 00:38:33:05
Philippa White
Hey, everyone, this is Phillip again. I hope you enjoyed listening. Now this is your chance to get involved with Thai. If you’re looking to create better leaders, better companies, and a better world. That’s just what we do by helping people tap into their greatest asset, their humanity. We have a number of corporate programs that impact a range of people from individuals at a company to 500 people around a business.

00:38:33:15 – 00:39:02:03
Philippa White
Or check out my book, Return on Humanity. Leadership Lessons from all corners of the World. You’ll find the answers to how business can truly become a positive force while remaining at the forefront of competition. You can find all the information you need on all of this at Thai leadership dotcom. Get in touch and I can explain more. A huge thanks to Bettina Vieira for co-producing this with me and for creating the music.

00:39:02:19 – 00:39:17:21
Philippa White
I hope we’ll meet again soon.