A voice from the Brazilian Atlantic Rainforest

Brazil, the rainforest, and the environment has hit the headlines quite a bit over the past couple of years.

And rightfully so.

And now, with more burning of the Amazon in the North of Brazil, the rainforest is back in the headlines.

It’s hard not to feel slightly paralyzed – wondering how on earth we can help. And be some sort of change in the face of all of this destruction.

Today we talk to Binka, co-founder of Iracambi, a Brazilian organization working to make the conservation of the Atlantic Rainforest more attractive than its destruction.

You will learn things you didn’t know about the state of the rainforest.

Binka helps paint a very real picture of the situation.

She tells us what keeps her up at night.

But also tells us what gives her hope.

You’ll also learn about how Covid is impacting the communities close to Iracambi. And it’s not what you’d expect.

Learn more about Iracambi here.

00:00:07:23 – 00:00:29:16
Philippa White
So the questions are these How can we really activate the best of the private sector to meet the challenges of the real world? Is there a way to accelerate my career that doesn’t involve boring online or classroom courses? And can I really impact people in the developing world with the skills that I have? Can I finally feel proud of what I know?

00:00:30:09 – 00:00:54:03
Philippa White
Those are the questions. And this podcast will give you the answers. My name is PHILIPPa White and this is TIE Unearthed. Keep listening and you can follow us on our journey as we show you how we’re connecting the private sector with the social sector to make change.

00:00:56:10 – 00:01:34:04
Philippa White
Hello everyone. Philippa White here and welcome to Episode six of TIE’s Podcast today. I’m thrilled to be speaking with Binka. Le Breton is the co-founder and director of the Eric Can Be Research Center in Brazil’s Atlantic Forest where she and her colleagues work to find solutions to the challenges of biodiversity, conservation and sustainability. She’s also a writer and educator who specializes in the environment and human rights, and she spends several months a year on the international lecture circuit where she is an experienced speaker and broadcaster.

00:01:34:04 – 00:02:00:03
Philippa White
But I’m guessing that hasn’t happened during COVID, unfortunately, yes. So now we have worked with Eric can be since 2009 and have had a number of projects with them since then, supporting their really important work of making the conservation of the Atlantic rainforest more attractive than its destruction. So hello, Binka, I’m so excited to have you with us today.

00:02:00:15 – 00:02:05:15
Binka Le Breton
Hey, PHILIPPa, isn’t isn’t the Internet wonderful? And we’re lucky to be able to connect.

00:02:05:15 – 00:02:34:04
Philippa White
Hi, everybody. Yes. With you in the middle of the Atlantic forest in it is quite extraordinary. And hear me in Linda Brazil so think I’m you know I’m fascinated by Eric can be I’m I’m thrilled to say I’m one of the lucky ones who’ve been to Europe can be spent time in your house and and at the research center understanding about the absolutely incredible work that you and Robyn and the team do.

00:02:34:15 – 00:02:44:16
Philippa White
And I just I would love you to bring you and Robyn and Eric can be to life and just tell us just how it all came about because I really do find the story fascinating.

00:02:45:23 – 00:03:16:01
Binka Le Breton
You are too kind, PHILIPPa. Okay, well, you know, long story short, it started with a midlife crisis and now my husband Robyn is actually not listening. So I can safely put all the blame on him. We were living we were based in Washington, DC. He is from Kenya and I’m British and we have lived around the world actually on all the continents except Australia.

00:03:16:01 – 00:03:38:04
Binka Le Breton
So that’s Tim on my bucket list and raised our kids on the international circuit. He was working with the World Bank as an economist, environmental economist and I was a concert pianist. So the fact that we now are running a biological research center in the middle of the back of beyond in the Atlantic forest in Brazil, shows that you can do anything.

00:03:38:04 – 00:04:12:03
Binka Le Breton
Anything. All right. Extraordinary. Now, become a biologist by osmosis and experience and love, too. So the idea was, you know, let’s let’s get off the kind of, you know, the World Bank bandwagon and go down and see if we can make some of this sustainability stuff is real, if we can really do it. And I think I thought because we had lived, you know, five years in India and we lived in Nairobi, I lived in Indonesia and all over the place.

00:04:12:09 – 00:04:36:07
Binka Le Breton
I think I thought of it as another three or four year project. Had I known, I would never have done it. But anyway, we did a very smart thing of that before we jumped off life in Washington. Our kids were just at college, so we didn’t have any mortgage bills and we didn’t have any college bills because the bank took care of that very kindly.

00:04:37:02 – 00:05:07:07
Binka Le Breton
So in our forties we were able to think about doing something completely crazy and the sensible thing we did was we took a six month kind of gap year and got in a car in Washington DC and drove down to Brazil. Which was the one you lived in? Yeah, we had already lived here. We spoke the language. We’d chosen Brazil as a place to try this sustainability thing, and we got in the car and drove off and many of our friends said, You’re crazy.

00:05:07:13 – 00:05:29:04
Binka Le Breton
Many of them said, Gosh, I wish I could. Some of them said, I wish I had, but most of them said, You’re crazy. But they were kind to us, you know? So they gave us a fabulous slap up American breakfast with pancakes and coffee and the whole nine yards, and then waved us off to Brazil and six months later we arrived.

00:05:29:13 – 00:05:52:20
Binka Le Breton
We had actually driven down. And if you think about driving to Brazil, you actually cannot do that because the road in between and most Central America and South America. So we had to actually shift the car and eventually we arrived at a piece of land that we had previously bought. It was on the edge of the rainforest in the mountains of Miniaturize.

00:05:53:19 – 00:06:16:07
Binka Le Breton
We wanted to have Marta and Zenshi both so land, forests and nice people. And that’s what we found in Minas. And we started off as, as a sustainable farm. And one thing led to another, you know how it is. If you knew where you were going, you probably never take the first step, right? Yeah. I couldn’t play the piano.

00:06:16:15 – 00:06:27:08
Binka Le Breton
I couldn’t be a pianist because there was no audience and I had a beautiful neck. And Robin said, you never wanted to play to the trees and things, but, you know, somehow I didn’t get the feedback.

00:06:29:19 – 00:06:49:05
Binka Le Breton
So I have my own midlife crisis and what the hell am I going to do with my wife and son and one friend said to me, Well, why don’t you write books? Because any fool can write. Thank you very much. Love you. Anyway, I started writing books and then eventually that started getting published and I started traveling and talking.

00:06:49:05 – 00:07:20:07
Binka Le Breton
I was writing about the rainforest particularly, and one day somebody said to me, I was in England, said, Do you have a piece of rainforest? And I said, Well, yeah, well, they said, Well, so what are you doing about it? So I came back and I said, Robyn, hey, what are we doing to save the rainforest? Because we’re in an area of small family farmers, and this beautiful, extraordinary rainforest here was getting nibbled away at the edges by farmers who were just, you know, desperately poor and needed to raise a few more bucks to buy flip flops so their kids could go to school.

00:07:20:22 – 00:07:24:21
Philippa White
Yeah. So when was this? Just to put this into perspective for everyone, what you’re going.

00:07:24:24 – 00:07:30:00
Binka Le Breton
To 1990. 90. So most of you weren’t even alive, right?

00:07:30:01 – 00:07:30:15
Philippa White
Yeah.

00:07:30:15 – 00:07:37:24
Binka Le Breton
Yeah. It was like moving back 100 years in time. It was very remote. No communications.

00:07:38:20 – 00:07:43:14
Philippa White
No light. I mean, I remember you. You literally you had to put in the electricity.

00:07:44:09 – 00:08:13:20
Binka Le Breton
We put in the electricity. Telephone was a, you know, huge drama. Still is actually telephone service in Brazil is quite tricky still. Yeah. And then we sort of got involved with the local community. And so ten years later, after working, after being smart enough to not to come and tell people what to do, but just listening and looking and seeing what they were doing and then thinking of we could try and figure out better ways of doing it.

00:08:13:20 – 00:08:16:14
Binka Le Breton
We funded the NGOs. So that was 21 years ago.

00:08:16:23 – 00:08:19:16
Philippa White
And congratulations because you just had your birthday.

00:08:20:05 – 00:08:31:18
Binka Le Breton
We just had our birthday. And you know, most organization ones don’t last that long. So it’s been a miracle. And here we are. And Philippa and TIE are part of our history. So thank you for.

00:08:32:03 – 00:08:56:07
Philippa White
Well, thank you. And I mean that I mean, yes. As as I say, I really, really love your work. What you do is so important. We’ve worked with you four times since 2009. And actually right after COVID. Right before COVID. Sorry, right before. Right. Wouldn’t that be a great thing to say right after that? Yes. Anyway, right before COVID, we had our last project with you guys, which was such a success.

00:08:57:03 – 00:09:14:15
Philippa White
But perhaps you can tell our listeners just about the experience that you’ve had to date with Tai, because there’s so many stories that I can think about. But, you know, maybe there’s a few that sort of stand out in your mind and just sort of bring to life the impact of working with Tai. What’s kind of happened from your phone?

00:09:14:23 – 00:09:40:23
Binka Le Breton
Maybe one of the things that springs to mind immediately is our very first TIE person who came from England to study Tiffany to help us with branding. And and now at that time and until relatively recently, we didn’t have a paid staff or only one or two paid staff members, and the rest of us sort of cycled in and out and largely volunteers.

00:09:40:23 – 00:10:17:03
Binka Le Breton
Today, we have seven paid staff members and two volunteers. That’s Robin and me, apart from other other volunteers, shorter, shorter term volunteers, but two full time volunteers and Tiffany came and she introduced us to the whole idea of branding and marketing and and we believe it or not, our original logo, we had set up our own website. I mean, you have to try and imagine that we are in the back of nowhere with very sketchy electricity and, you know, not the kind of stuff that you use.

00:10:17:03 – 00:10:24:20
Binka Le Breton
You’d expect. And this was before cell phones and Internet and so on were really very widespread. We had to get our Internet through satellite extreme.

00:10:24:22 – 00:10:29:05
Philippa White
Oh, well, I remember I think I was at Eric and B when you still had it via satellite.

00:10:29:10 – 00:10:45:15
Binka Le Breton
Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, incredibly complicated. Anyway, we had set up our own our own website with some help from some volunteers from the States. And we had, amazingly enough, chosen as our logo floss.

00:10:48:12 – 00:10:50:10
Philippa White
Slash bright yellow.

00:10:50:22 – 00:11:17:11
Binka Le Breton
Because we are a non official center of release for captive species, which means that the forest police, if somebody, you know, picks up a jaguar or a sloth or a 100 parrots, they bring them to release because we are a private reserve here. Yeah. And so our very first animal that was released was a source and that was our logo because we thought it was cute.

00:11:17:11 – 00:11:49:11
Binka Le Breton
And then Tiffany came and she said, You know what, guys? It’s not really very dynamic, so let’s think. And then we put out the idea, which is really our strongest asset, and that is the hummingbird. And there is a really quickly the story of the hummingbird. It’s an indigenous story throughout the Americas. And the story goes like this, that the forest is on fire and all the animals are fleeing except for the hummingbird.

00:11:49:11 – 00:12:09:11
Binka Le Breton
And the hummingbird is flying towards the fire within a drop of water and happy and the eagle looks down at her from on high, and he shouts, You silly little bird, you think you’re going to be able to put out the water all by yourself? And the hummingbird drops a drop of water and she says to the eagle, I won’t do it by myself, but I’m doing my part.

00:12:10:05 – 00:12:30:04
Binka Le Breton
And it was Tiffany who helped us select that image, and we were lucky enough to have a graphic person with us at the time. And the hummingbird has been, I say, one of our strongest suits and one of the things that makes us best known, and that was in trying to Tiffany was that sloths were not very dynamic.

00:12:31:12 – 00:12:57:06
Philippa White
Oh, great. Yeah. Gosh, how funny. You know, because actually thinking about it, I do remember this laugh and I don’t even think, yeah, call God, how amazing. So that was in 2009 that you you created the of how amazing gosh time is is passing very quickly so as you as you know we are launching our TIE accelerator program, which we are super excited about.

00:12:57:06 – 00:13:25:07
Philippa White
And I imagine our listeners now know what it’s all about, which obviously is, is around getting groups of groups of people to support organizations like Eric can be. And you are going to be one of the organizations that we’re wanting to work with and just wanted to know if, you know, if you could talk to us about what you’re hoping to get from this type, celebrate experience, how you hope we can help.

00:13:25:07 – 00:13:48:18
Binka Le Breton
Yes, we’re actually super excited about this. We are like all of us, we have been in a compulsory period of of self reinventing. How are we going to adapt our programs to, you know, the shutdown and the reality of that? And one of the things that has affected us a lot is normally we have up to a cup.

00:13:49:21 – 00:14:14:11
Binka Le Breton
Students and volunteers and researchers who spend from 1 to 3 to sometimes six months with us over the course of the year. And this has the effect for us of providing, you know, helping us with our mission of understanding how to protect the rainforest, providing us with a bunch of ideas. We’ve had students from 71 different countries.

00:14:14:11 – 00:14:15:21
Philippa White
Gosh, wow, wow.

00:14:16:15 – 00:14:38:13
Binka Le Breton
And we have their flags painted on the wall, which is very exciting. Isn’t all dried up? You know, overnight when the sky fell in at the end of March. And so not only do we not have all these all these students and researchers and volunteers, but they were providing income to fund our projects as well as ideas and manpower.

00:14:38:13 – 00:15:13:17
Binka Le Breton
So that was a huge difference. We had already been thinking and beginning to make corporate partnerships and sort of reevaluating our model with most of much of our income stream comes from crowdfunding. Yeah, about one third of it came from the volunteers and students who were living and working with us, and so we lost that overnight. And we have been sinking for the last year and a half about changing our model and not being on the sort of traditional NGO, you know, hands out, looking for donations all the time.

00:15:13:17 – 00:15:36:24
Binka Le Breton
So what kind of a social enterprise can we set up and how could we make partnerships and so on? So what we really would love to get from the TIE program is the opportunity to work with a group of, you know, highly skilled professionals from different backgrounds. Yeah. So the one person that would be, you know, different people with skills.

00:15:36:24 – 00:15:37:07
Philippa White
Yeah.

00:15:38:07 – 00:16:16:09
Binka Le Breton
And you know, in an ideal world, PHILIPPa, we would like to be like some very famous large international NGOs who managed to cover their core costs. Yeah. So working with corporations and non corporations, you know, not just partners of one kind or another either through helping, you know, with sponsors, ship or in-kind donations or volunteering. So if we could reach that level, then all our fund, our crowdfunding could be directly applied to our projects, which are basically reforestation, education.

00:16:16:09 – 00:16:47:22
Binka Le Breton
We’re working with medicinal plants and we do a lot of environmental policy work, which is super important. We first so totally pouring through that, but then we realize that, you know, one little person planting one tree is great and one little person voting for, you know, the right person who will help to make the policy changes has much more impact total so that what we’d love to you know, to be able to contribute towards the accelerator program.

00:16:47:22 – 00:17:13:05
Philippa White
I mean is it yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I also we just need to get the word out because the faster we can get to get this group of people together to support Eric can be with the accelerator obviously the quicker we can start to make a difference like that. So good I will. Yeah. I’ll keep you posted as, as as things come together in our world.

00:17:13:14 – 00:17:44:05
Philippa White
But as you talked about policy, it brings me to my next question. Actually, just because it’s something that really weighs on my mind, as we all know, Brazil, the rainforest and the environment has hit the headlines quite a bit over the past couple of years, even now, with a lot of the burning that’s happening in in the Amazon in the north of Brazil, but particularly since Bolsonaro has come into power, it’s also really hit the headlines even more just because of what’s happening.

00:17:44:17 – 00:18:07:20
Philippa White
And it’s something that really just it’s something that really affects people all over the world. People are obviously really concerned about it, something that I’m really concerned about. And I just wonder a few things that I want to know from you. One, what can you tell the listeners today that they might not know and what keeps you up at night and what also gives you hope?

00:18:07:23 – 00:18:19:05
Philippa White
And I just wonder if you could talk to us about that, because you’re so directly affected by much of what’s going on in the government now, what has been going on in the government policy, etc.?

00:18:20:20 – 00:18:46:11
Binka Le Breton
Well, we are well, I’m sure people know the situation in the Amazon. The Amazon is rapidly reaching the tipping point, at which point it will start to release carbon instead of storing carbon. And there is a really serious danger that much of the Amazon area can turn into Savanna. We have we take a particular interest in the climate crisis.

00:18:46:17 – 00:19:27:18
Binka Le Breton
All our programs are directed towards trying to help mitigate that in some form or another, which is one of the reasons that we do large scale reforestation and also a lot of community education. But the policy that’s a very interesting thing. And I think the Brazilian government is kind of taking a leaf out of the book of our big neighbors in the north by dismantling environmental protection laws in the name of economic progress, which is just ever more apparent that’s happening in our state municipalities, which is a state with a lot of mineral resources.

00:19:27:18 – 00:20:07:18
Binka Le Breton
This was already happening under the previous administration, the state government. And and now the federal government is is doing its level best to remove citizen participation in policy decisions. For example, the one that the federal organization that gets together all the environmental, both state and third sector actors, has removed all NGOs from the consumer, which is the National Environmental Council, NGOs, all of that, yeah.

00:20:09:02 – 00:20:48:04
Binka Le Breton
In MINIATURIZE our state, we’ve been on the State Environmental Policy Council, which is something that looks at, for example, licensing projects like big dams for mining or, you know, anything that affects the environment. There has been a determined effort to make it more difficult for civil society to participate in this. So a one level, the state is really going all out for, quote, economic development without any idea that they’re ruining, you know, the the enormous resources that Brazil has.

00:20:48:12 – 00:21:11:07
Binka Le Breton
You know, and, you know, on the other hand, this is this is what gives me hope, Filipe, is that this whole COVID culture, where we are meeting and coming together ever more and ever more successfully thanks to the Internet, thank God for having an internet connection. Otherwise we would be sunk.

00:21:11:23 – 00:21:12:06
Philippa White
Yeah.

00:21:12:22 – 00:21:36:21
Binka Le Breton
That for example, there are many organizations and networks and things that we belong to that are basically they’re based on the cities in the southeast, the Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo. And we haven’t previously been able to easily take ourselves down Sao Paulo. It’s like a ten hour no hard journey from here. But now we are coming together much more.

00:21:36:21 – 00:21:52:17
Binka Le Breton
We are able to communicate much better with each other and and make some really sensible decisions. So I think that as the state is failing us, we are coming together as a civil society. Yeah. And know that that does give me hope.

00:21:53:00 – 00:22:16:14
Philippa White
Yeah. And me too. Me too. And I think everyone can feel the tide is moving where more people are awake, they feel empowered, hopefully. And I think we just need more opportunities like TIE. But there are so many other opportunities out there in different ways that people can feel empowered, can actually do something. And I think I feel I agree.

00:22:16:14 – 00:22:31:10
Philippa White
I feel as a result of all of this, people want to take action. And I think if you’re wanting to if you’re listening and this is something that you’re interested to do, do get in touch, because this is a way that you can actually be a part of the solution and be the change that you want to see in the world.

00:22:31:21 – 00:22:49:15
Philippa White
And I think that’s what more and more people are wanting to do. So I agree with you. And I also feel hopeful because of that. As we wrap things up, I just wonder, can you tell us about what you’re working on at the moment that you think our listeners will find interesting? I find what you do fascinating. Virtually every time I listen to you talk, I feel so inspired.

00:22:50:01 – 00:22:58:10
Philippa White
So I just wonder, you know, is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with as far as, you know, what what you’re thinking about at the moment, what you’re working on at the moment?

00:22:59:13 – 00:23:33:07
Binka Le Breton
Yeah, we go to a couple of projects. Philip have one is directly kind of arisen out of the COVID situation. We have a rather successful environmental education course where we were trying to train young leaders in this remote rural area of Brazil. Their schooling is somewhat precarious and many of the students in school are first generation students. So, for example, the question of, you know, home schooling is is virtually out of the question at the moment and our schools are still closed.

00:23:33:07 – 00:24:06:22
Binka Le Breton
So we have set up and are just about to launch an environmental leadership online program. Now, this involves most people don’t in this area don’t have access to Internet and many people don’t, but most people have cell phone. So if we can provide cell phone credit, we can we can involve some of the local students. And research reveals that the longer kids are out of school, particularly when they’re 14, 15, the less likely they are to go back.

00:24:07:08 – 00:24:11:03
Binka Le Breton
Yeah. And at the moment, this is, you know, other cohort.

00:24:11:03 – 00:24:11:19
Philippa White
Right time.

00:24:11:21 – 00:24:34:03
Binka Le Breton
Of the boys will get a job. The girls, you know, may get pregnant from those. But there doesn’t just a multiplicity of factors that makes it more difficult for every month that they’re out, more difficult for them to get back. And we were discussing this yesterday. What we would like to do is, you know, there is a whole wealth of potential among young people in Brazil as everywhere else.

00:24:34:12 – 00:24:56:22
Binka Le Breton
We want to find the next question, but we want to find the next Malala Yousafzai. You know, she is out there somewhere and we want to be able to give people and many young people are bored and frustrated. We want to be able to give them the the notion that, as you say, they can be the change. And so it’s very challenging and very exciting.

00:24:56:22 – 00:25:09:05
Binka Le Breton
And if anybody has any wonderful ideas on how to, you know, awaken that leadership potential that is there, we know it’s amazing. That’s one of the things we’re doing. And I quickly tell you about the other one.

00:25:09:18 – 00:25:12:00
Philippa White
Oh, my God. That of course. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:25:13:00 – 00:25:35:13
Binka Le Breton
The other one we’re very excited about. We actually have been working on that since before COVID, and we have done a lot of forest restoration. And the good news is around here, it was quite the forest was quite badly impacted. And we have a been running for the last year for years, a program of reforestation on local farms.

00:25:36:05 – 00:26:09:08
Binka Le Breton
Small farmers may be, you know, 16 to 25 hectares, something like that. And we’ve been working with them to reforest, partly because they are by law, they are supposed to have areas in forests and partly because their land has been quite severely impacted by climate change. And there’s been stress on water resources. Brazil is a very rich water water resource country and people are not accustomed to suddenly having things happen like their springs dry up, which is of course disastrous for them.

00:26:10:05 – 00:26:39:01
Binka Le Breton
So we’ve been looking at different ways of creating a really solid model of forest restoration that would be replicable in other areas of of and even in other biomes. So it’s our programs. School can be smart forest and we’re looking at taking in it, taking areas of reforestation, monitoring them, very close sleepers by drones, taking photographs with you.

00:26:39:02 – 00:27:10:17
Binka Le Breton
We want to work with LIDAR, which is a kind of a radar, which is drone mounted and which essentially kind of bounces down a laser beam, which will tell you, oh, give you a lot of information about the regrowth of the forest we use can use soundscapes you know to to hear the noises of the forest. And all this put together can really create a very exciting picture of how, how the forest, in our case, or whatever biome you’re working in is regenerating.

00:27:10:17 – 00:27:35:04
Binka Le Breton
And if we can really get that going and it’s it’s a program that’s at in its complete infancy. We’ve done the research on partners in different countries who are working on this to be able to produce a constant model that will say this is one way that you can successfully restore a forest and this is how you can show that you’ve restored the forest and this is how you can get the biomass.

00:27:35:13 – 00:27:42:23
Binka Le Breton
And, you know, the amount of carbon that is being captured and so on. So that’s our that’s our kind of big hairy dream if we can be smart forest.

00:27:43:06 – 00:27:48:07
Philippa White
That’s extraordinary. And just so I understand, what’s the next step with that? Where where are you up to the.

00:27:48:07 – 00:27:50:04
Binka Le Breton
Well, the next step of that is to find some funding.

00:27:50:17 – 00:28:18:08
Philippa White
Oh, I see. Okay. So. Okay, so. Yeah, fine. Okay. So I mean, for our listeners, actually, just as far as please get in touch with me in the, in the, the bio when I post this on the, on the podcast, in the, in the info area, I will put the contact details of air can be as well. So please if you know people or you can help in any way, please get in touch with there can be because their work is phenomenal and it’s very, very important.

00:28:18:08 – 00:28:39:01
Philippa White
So Binker, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your passion. Thank you for everything that you do. It is so important. I, I, I feel so honored that we’ve been able to help in a small way with the work that you do. And I look forward to doing that again with Tie Accelerator, hopefully soon. We just need to get the word out so that we can sell this project.

00:28:39:01 – 00:29:03:11
Binka Le Breton
So let’s do it. And thank you so much for what you do. And I just want to congratulate all of us for the ways in which we are reinventing and adapting. And it’s not always easy and it’s painful. But, you know, we are all moving towards the new paradigm, whatever that may be. So that’s something that gives me hope as well that after this thing will be will be better.

00:29:04:02 – 00:29:32:24
Philippa White
Yeah. Agreed. Think you’re amazing. Thank you so, so much.

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